Jason Polins: 0:00

I just don't really want to play with social media that much. I think it's all very interesting, but the thing for me, the idea of social media is it's it's gaming the algorithms. That's it. It has zero to do with the people on it.

Kyle Stuckey: 0:16

I think you've always needed to be wear a lot of hats, right? You've always had to be able to market yourself to some degree.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:22

Welcome to the Faso Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a BoldBrush. My name is Laura Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. Welcome back to another compilation episode. Today's topic is the one almost every artist either loves to

hate or just quietly avoids: 0:51

marketing, social media, email lists, galleries versus going direct. We pull the most practical, most repeatable advice on this from across the

show's run: 1:02

no growth hacks, no algorithm hacks that'll be outdated by the time you hear this. Just the stuff that actually holds up. Let's get into

Kyle Stuckey: 1:10

it. I think the expectation on artists has changed. For so long, you know, artists would paint, and I think most artists-that's what they want to do. They want to go in their studio or out and in the you know outside and paint plein air, or they want to paint the studio and they want to create work. Now, I think you've always needed to be wear a lot of hats, right? You've always had to be able to market yourself to some degree, and organize your life enough to get paintings to galleries. But for so long, I think you know galleries handled so much of like the collector find, you know, finding collectors, marketing your work and and that has changed a bit with with social media. Now a lot of galleries are expecting you to have a good social media presence, and and that seems great because we have like the ability to connect with our collectors, but there's a little bit of a like a shift in what an artist is expected to the amount of time we're expected to put in. You know, like

Unknown: 2:35

yeah,

Kyle Stuckey: 2:36

you could spend you know how many hours you could spend a day building social media, doing reels or TikToks or you know whatever you know whatever, and that's basically just taken away from painting time. And I think we're being-I don't know what the balance is yet. Honestly, I'm kind of in this. I'm not sure like how to balance how much social media do you presence do you have? How much how much value does it actually have? And and just creating paintings and having galleries do what they do best and sell you know and selling. And it also runs into like a little bit of a confusing world of like, you know, for so long galleries built client bases, and now artists are also sort of building client bases. So now who's, you know, who gets the rights to art sales, or what is the split on that? Should artists start getting finder fees the way that gallery to gallery would work, potentially how that works would probably depend on from gallery to gallery and artist art. And I think that's something like working with galleries. You need to really make sure that you're on the same page and and moving forward in the changing world because it's not what it was 2030, 4050, years ago, you know, it's changing. We have, I'm finding clients through Instagram in a sense, and and they're finding clients in their ways, and um, but that's taken away from paint to time, and that's navigating that is is hard, I think. Or for me, it is, and I think it seems to be. You know, I see so often that artists, you know, all of a sudden go go kind of a wall on like on social media, like, oh, where have they been? And I do it all the time. I have, you know, I'll like forget to post for days or months, and that's a terrible platform for building a thriving social media, right? It's

Unknown: 4:47

it's

Kyle Stuckey: 4:47

a bad business model. So,

Unknown: 4:49

yeah,

Kyle Stuckey: 4:50

but we get burnt out, or I do. I get a little burnt out with

Laura Arango Baier: 4:53

it. Totally, yeah.

Kyle Stuckey: 4:55

Because I'm already trying to be creative enough. I think like I've tried to create. This art, and then also be creative social media creator is like, yeah, it's still creative brain power that you have to be.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:09

Here's the first, and honestly, the biggest theme that came up over and over: marketing isn't really about posting; it's about relationships. Clint Watson on why your best collectors should hear from you before Instagram does, Keith Bond on the one thing all his marketing was actually for Nancy Franz Faso on turning an online follow into an actual friendship, Jeanie Rosier Smith on the simple system she uses to decide what goes to Instagram versus what goes straight to a gallery, and Dave Glaser more honestly than most on still figuring this part out,

Clint Watson: 5:41

I think this speaks what I was talking about before about people doing things back. I think probably first, and I'm guessing, but I think most people's first inclination post it on Instagram or to post it on social media first. And I get it. You finish a piece, you're excited, and that's super easy to do, right? I mean it's now with phones. I mean, as soon as you take the photo, you could do it. But I I don't think that's the best way to go about it. I think the best way to go about it is to take a photograph of the painting, figure out which of your past collectors or prospective collectors that you're close with is most likely to be interested. Text them a photo or email them a photo and say, "Hey, I just finished this. I think this is one you would be interested in. Are you interested in first dibs on it? I absolutely think that's the first thing to do because you want to make those people feel special. That's the whole reason they want. I mean, that's not the whole reason, but it's a big reason why people want to connect with artists. And that's essentially what I was doing as a gala. I had these lists for different artists of people that were interested in their work, and I had basically previously told them, you know, yeah, the one you called about is sold, but when another one comes in, I'll you'll be the first person I call, and that's what that's what I was doing. I mean, that was in a way that was a big part of the value that I was trying to bring to these people was to to sort of get them inside access right to different artists and different pieces. So I think again, if you refer to the circles of art marketing idea, basically my circles of art marketing idea is that there's three marketing circles, and then your arts in the middle. The outside circle is the public awareness circle. The middle circle is people who have joined your audience, but may or may not have bought anything yet, and the inner circle is the people who are the people that, for whatever reason, are really close to you and most laura. So I feel like artists sort of, when they have a piece to market, start with the outside one, which is posting it on Instagram, and then email it to their newsletter list, your existing audience. And I don't know how many go to the inner circle idea, but that would probably come last. And I feel like you should work your way from the inside out. You have a new piece. Contact the people most likely to buy directly. Give them dibs. If they pass, then send it to your audience, which would be your email list-people you can contact directly through not necessarily a one-on-one channel, but it's a direct channel-and then give them second dibs, I guess. And then, if they pass, then post it on social media to draw in new people. The great thing about social media-it's easy, and you can reach a lot of people. The bad thing is you're competing with everybody else in the world, right?

Keith Bond: 8:26

I will clarify. When I worked at the gallery, i I was more as the assistant director. I was more behind the scenes duties and responsibilities. I didn't work directly with the clients as much. I did some, but not to the same extent as you know you would expect working in a gallery. So I didn't necessarily learn as the gallery in the gallery setting. I didn't necessarily always learn what to do to market my art as an artist, but what I did observe from those who did the selling at the gallery is how important those personal relationships are with the client, and that is number one. That is key: is to build that relationship with the clients. You know, all of the marketing should be to build that relationship. You know, there's the earlier on in my career, I was a lot more religious about sending out email newsletters, and I have not done them as well in the last few years. Which I'm getting back to them because I know they're important, but I would say when I was religious about it and send them out regularly, things would happen as a result on a regular basis. I didn't always sell something directly from it, but oftentimes I did. But oftentimes it would lead to other things. It would lead to a commitment. It would lead to, you know, maybe not the painting that was in the newsletter, but they would, we would have a discussion, and they would see a different painting that I had, or they'd say, "Do you have anything like this? And I said, "Well, I'm working on one right now. It's not done. And oh, can I see it? You know, so things would always happen when I was a lot more religious with the newsletters. I got really busy and distracted, and I had galleries who were selling enough, and I had some like these mural. I mean, I've done several of those big mural commissions, and those are like one or two year projects. So you know, sometimes I would be so involved in those that I neglected the newsletters for a while, and so yeah, I think I think keeping in contact with your client base is also very important. The newsletters being the one of the methods of doing that.

Nanci France-Vaz: 11:04

Galleries is somebody else's business, and you know you're taking a chance that they are going to put you in front of their collectors. Some of the problems today that I see with I think in the '90s or turn of the 21st century, you know they they were really good before the whole social media thing, and I think since social media came out, as a business owner myself, I kind of can feel for you know social media artists are able to sell on their own right now, but of course they have to find the collectors, that's very difficult to do. I've done it, and I have done you know in the past year. I do have those collectors that have seen my work through Instagram, and so that's why I focus on Instagram. Or I read about them, and then I went to an event that they were at, and I didn't say anything to them. I just got to know them, and you know, I became, I guess, very extroverted as I got older. I was more introverted when I was younger, and then after gymnastics, I would say in my 30s, I started to come into my own, and then in my 40s, now I was selling, and so I found that you have to get along with people. You have to network by just becoming their friend. You have to build relationships. That's what business is all about: build relationships, whether it's with a gallery, with a collector on Instagram. You know.

Unknown: 12:39

So what I do at this point is when I put when I put works on Instagram, which I try to do every day. I I put something up on Instagram. I usually I often I'll put new work on Instagram that's not on my website yet. But if it's something that I want to sell myself now, I already I have nine galleries now, and at this point, there's so many galleries that usually all of the work that I produce needs to go out to the galleries. But occasionally, I'll produce something that I'm not sure where it wants, where I'm going to put it, and maybe I'm hoping it's going to sell before it goes out to a gallery. And in that case, I'll just go ahead and stick it up on my website, put it on Instagram, and if I'm lucky, somebody might see it, inquire about it, and I'll say,"Oh, it's yeah, it's on my website, and then they can go buy it direct from my website, and so that that will work work out perfectly. Sometimes I'll just I'll just have it on there. Often I will put something on Instagram and say this was just delivered to Susan Powell Gallery or to Gallery 31 or which whichever one it might be, and then someone will see it and then contact the gallery. I've had I probably have a sale like that at least every couple weeks where somebody will go from Instagram to the gallery and buy something direct at the gallery, so it so that's one way that I get around the galleries being upset with me, you know that it doesn't it doesn't compete with them because I bring a lot of business to their galleries by referring stuff there.

Diego Glazer: 14:14

Well, to be honest with you, I'm still pretty new to social media marketing, so what I've I've always been a lot more reliant on personal relationships to actually sell my artwork, and my social media has served more as a as a thing to share and you know get a sort of audience around the world. It's translated into sales a few times, but not as much as I'd like, so that's something I'd like to focus on this year to try to turn my social media into not just something to share cool pictures on, but to turn it into a funnel for people to sign up to my newsletter and have more of a personal relationship with them that'll result in actual. Sales of originals, prints, sketches, all that sort of stuff. So it's something I'm still kind of learning.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:09

Up next, platforms come and go, algorithms change overnight. But there's one asset that's

actually yours: 15:15

Matthew White and Mary Aslan on the email list. Poppy Balzer on how she started hers with 11 people, most of them her own family. Shuang Li on using it to reach people her workshops never do, and Jenny Butcher on the moment back in 2001 that pushed her toward building her own audience in the first place.

Unknown: 15:33

If that is a goal that you have, it takes time. You know, it really does. And if that is your main goal, you're probably going to get really frustrated because it doesn't happen quickly. You know, some people it might happen faster for some people, but for me, it was showing up consistently every week, not missing a week for you know two or three years before you can see larger numbers like that. I wanted to add one more thing about the email list because that's what I tell other artists all the time is that right now at a time when there is so much going on with social media and platforms are changing, algorithms are changing, TikTok or you know Twitter changes to X overnight, and and everything is different over there now. Instagram favors Reels now and video even more so than photos. So we're constantly trying to regain our footing when it comes to social media. That's why more than ever, an email list is so important. You own that audience, and you know the you could put a lot of content out on Instagram or TikTok or or even YouTube, but if you're not capturing that audience and trying to start an an engaged email list, you're really missing out because things can change over time, but that email list is is more valuable to me than anything else. So I encourage anyone out there who even wants to sell their art or some type of if they want to have some product in the future, they don't even know what it is yet. When you're at an art show, put out your little book. Say sign up for my email list. When you put things on Instagram, when you put things on YouTube, try to promote people and give them a reason to sign up for your newsletter. If you just say I have a newsletter, you know nine out of 10 people aren't going to care. So give them give them a great reason to sign up because you collecting those names over the years is so valuable because your open rate and your emails is always going to be higher than the algorithm that feeds people your stuff on on you know Instagram or anything else. Single most valuable thing that I use for for the business, and I I give Clint Watson a lot of credit for for in the the early days emphasizing how significant that is, and the number one question is just to back up a little bit. Well, how do how do you get people in you know to sign up, you know art shows when anytime you can meet people in public and invite them to do that. I know in Instagram you can now go followers and ask them you know please sign up for my newsletter, you know blogs the daily the daily art show that that is on as part of BoldBrush all those things. People get to know you and will sign up. The email newsletter is absolutely instrumental. It has made all the difference for me. I got my Faso website in early 2010, and the reason why I did was honestly because of the Fine Art Views newsletter, which had been had been going for quite a while, it's and it was delivered into my in my email box. I think it was every day for years and years. It was every day, and mostly it was useful stuff to artists. But every now and then, the useful stuff for the artist was discussing how to have a website, how to build a website, what you know, what sort of website you need to have, what's what's useful on a website, all this stuff, and you know they were they were they were general information which was useful, but it also was Fine Art Studio Online saying this is you know this is how we do our websites, and this is why we think it's important for artists. And it totally worked. So I bought the product from the newsletter, and so I got my website early 2010, and almost immediately started a newsletter with 11 people, which was my brother, my sister, my mother, my father. And about five or six other people, and I was not super regular in sending it at the beginning, but I would, you know, when somebody said, "Oh, I like your, I like your work. How do I find out more? I'd be like, "I have a newsletter. I send it out. Do you want to go on my list? So I added people gradually over time. So I started with 11, but then I then I reached out to people that I had sort of like a you know any sort of relationship with where I thought they they might be interested in the fact that I'm now painting, so I invited them to join my list, and then I probably had 50 or 60 people. Over the years, I've found different ways to draw people to my my to my website and to sign up for the newsletter, and I see that as the most important tool, honestly, in my artist business outside of working with galleries. Having the website, having the newsletter, that is the biggest tool that I have that drives drives people to come see what I'm doing, and some of them buy paintings.

Shuang Li: 21:03

Yeah, I just love Faso. I have to say, before you know, I think it's before 2011. I used different website, which was pretty much because I thought, gee, I came from IT world. I can't do this, so I just used the other website. I just I realized that you know it didn't have half of the things I needed. Every pieces I needed to go spend time to you know search and you know redo it. I hate it. So once I switched to Faso, you know the website, the newsletter, social media connections, and also the e-commerce-you know-all these tools is right there as one. So that's you know that's perfect for artists who wanted to take the you know your artwork you know artwork into the business world. So, and I used, I think the most is one is a website, and the two is a newsletter. And newsletter helped me tremendously. I would say, I'm not very good at going outside and you know whore myself says hey come to see my painting you know I'm not that type of person and I'm too busy I need I teach workshops and demos and you know travel many things, so newsletter gave me the great opportunity to reach to people who I don't have in my workshop, and they can't not only see but keep a connection and see all my events coming up. So I use newsletter a lot.

Ginny Butcher: 22:50

When I first started, it was 2000 or 2000 2001. I don't know. It was a few months before 911, and I had great success. I I I was using pastels, and I had great success. And then 911 happened, and everything went kind of crazy. And I hadn't been in the business long enough to realize really any of how things were affected by stuff like that, and but that the galleries began to close, and so that kind of led me into considering online stuff, even though it was kind of new-ish, And I I can't remember when I first built a website, but it was with Faso, and it's been a while. I'm it's been at least 15 years. I think a little longer than that. I think I'm not sure. I've tried to find out, but I couldn't figure it Out, but I really like that, and I I read their articles about marketing, particularly email. So email has always been one of my main avenues, and pretty successful. And you know, then we kind of moved into social media stuff somewhere along the lines. But I think I did the eBay before that. I decided eBay was not for me, and no, just not my thing. But and I know artists. A lot of artists sell on social media. I have rarely sold anything on there, although I do, you know, post things, and I've I've kind of worked in and out of, you know, the whole how many times you post, what do you post, and all of that stuff, and I think a lot of us, me for sure, I could just. Do without it, as far as my personal makeup. But I do it because it seems like you should do it.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:10

Social media itself isn't really the enemy here. It's how you use it and what you expect from it. Sarah Sedwick on treating it as a community instead of a billboard. Noobu Cannon on what it replaced, the old lonely image of the artist chained to their easel, Oliver Sin on learning to use social media instead of letting it use him, and Catherine Bukowski on a hard lesson from watching her own follower count take off.

Sarah Sedwick: 25:33

Social media is very important for artists. I think one of the biggest things is it builds community amongst us, and we are the ones who are going to give each other chances. You know, you network with someone who's about to open a gallery in a city you don't live in. You don't even know that person's about to open a gallery, but then they become your best-selling representative. That happens online. You just taught your first local workshop. You weren't even really that sure how it went, but you posted pictures from it on your Instagram, and then someone contacts you through that. And the next thing you know, you're teaching 10 workshops out of town a year. You're just making friends with other artists. A lot of us don't have artist friends who are in our local sphere. We don't have other people, and then so you know maybe you guys start a Zoom group where you get together once a month and you just paint, and then you throw them all up on a Dropbox board and look at them and have a group critique. I mean, there the possibilities are endless. We can still use social media for the good. Me having a lot of followers right now. Look, my my follower count has been stagnant for two or three years, has not changed.

Unknown: 26:53

I think that I try to I try to identify myself as a narrative art artist, as a narrative painter, and the works, the descriptions of the shows, and the descriptions of the works within the shows tend to discuss that as really tying into a tradition, you know, tying into a history of this practice, and you know, identifying oneself, myself as a as a as a you know classical narrative figurative artist that is using painting techniques that come from the traditions of of you know certain figureheads in art history like Caravangio, like Rembrandt, and so forth. I think you know just in descriptions of shows. I think that it would it would be limited to that in you know how I describe the paintings in the show. Marketing the work I think has changed a lot since the advent of social media. I'm sure we all agree it's been a wonderful thing for artists to have a social media to be able to take something that's just a sketch or an idea, and you know, in a few moments, a little scribble or an oil sketch or a half finished drawing or a painting that's just the underpainting, you know, anything can be shared with the world in just a matter of seconds, and the fulfillment, the satisfaction that we get from that, I think is is so major. Because I remember years where we couldn't market ourselves that way. You know, to say this is what I'm doing. I'm an artist who's working right now in this moment on my easel. This is what it looks like here, I am painting, or this is what I'm struggling with, and to just share that with the world. Before the advent of social media, artists felt, I think, very lonely and isolated, and often there was this metaphor of the artist chained to their easel that was shared around a lot. You know, I'd hear painters, realists especially, say they felt chained to the easel in a lonely, windowless room somewhere. You know, because they couldn't afford to have a studio, so they'd be in their basement and just painting a still life, and the hours and hours that went into it. And you would sit there and paint, trying to finish this painting, because you knew that that would be where you'd get to actually see the world again is putting the painting out there in a gallery or in a show, and so you were kind of waiting for that moment to get the fulfillment, the reward of your craft, to get to share what you've done with the world, you know. And and it was very frustrating to say, well, this painting's not going to be done for months. No one's going to know about it unless they happen to visit my studio, and and even even after it's finished, it'll be months before it's exhibited, and you really had to wait for the gallery to market it. Well, now you can market it yourself because we all have Instagram accounts and and. You know, and other social media as well. Instantaneously, you get to share the making of it, the you know the stages of it, and the unveiling of it when it's done. And I think the I think the artists don't feel so lonely anymore in their marketing. They also feel don't feel beholden to a gallery to to manage the marketing or even the necessity to have a really strong website. I mean that's that's imperative I think to to have the strong website, but the social the access to social media changes the marketing quite a bit because you can make any post you can turn any post into. It could just be about sharing the work, but it could also be that this is what I do in the workshop that I'm teaching this summer, or it could be that you know I'm selling, I'm having a studio sale this summer of all the drawings that I've been doing studies for my next big painting. Here they are, and you know I'm going to begin selling them next week, and so it's instantaneous marketing that I think it puts a lot of power back in the hands of the artist, and it's it's that instantaneousness of it feels very powerful. That I can just be drawing on the easel or painting on the wall over here and decide, oh, I better market my show coming up next month, and I don't have to wait for the gallery to do it. I can do it myself. We are all artists. We all need extra income. We all need to learn how to sell our artwork, promote our artwork, and I find it. I have been using social media. I think more than eight years, seven years in the beginning of the Instagram, and of course I was embarrassed. So I asked my TA. I asked her, "Can you show me how to use the Instagram? I was embarrassed. You know, it's not easy. You know, I'm I'm not into technology. I'm sure you heard that all the time. So and then I asked her, "Can you show me how to use the social media? So anyway, and then she showed me how to use the social media, and I know how to use the social media well, and I know how to do not let the social media to use me, because before the social media, you know, introduced to to this world. I was a garage artist, so I was a struggle artist that no one knows about me. No one wanted to buy my artwork. So I would like to tell your audience, thank you for social media. Without the social media, I won't have an opportunity here to be interviewed by you, Laura, and I think that social media open all of us up to the whole world. And I, you can able to sell artwork on social media, but my strategy is I'm not trying to show I'm very very desperate. So I I'm lucky that I'm a very very passionate artist. I don't have to worry about selling my artwork. But of course, I have

Catherine Bobkoski: 33:07

social media is like an aspect of marketing. It's maybe a a part or a first step, but it's not the whole thing. And the thing really that I've been realizing lately, especially, is that Instagram doesn't care if Catherine Bobkowski grows and has a successful business. They care about Instagram growing and having a successful business, and actually helping me out might be counterproductive to that goal, right? So, the the thing I've been realizing is that, and I think what people want too is an actual human connection, like actual interaction, conversation, a a personal connection that is not what you get from watching a 20-second reel on Instagram,

Cindy Baron: 34:03

a little bit of real talk now. Cindy Barron on keeping a professional account professional. Jason Pollins on what the algorithm actually is and isn't rewarding. Brian Bateman on finding a niche when the algorithm keeps moving the goalposts. Orlando Whitfield, a former galleryist, on the gap between followers and actual buyers, and Gladys Roldan de Moraaz on paying for advertising and staying open about who she is, even as an introvert. It's changed over the years. The biggest marketing advice, you know, at a time, you know, Facebook and Instagram is is a great freebie, you know, and that's changing now for artists because you know you used to get all these you know exposure and all this kind of stuff. So they're changing that too, and they're now wanting money to boost things and the blah blah blah. And to be honest, we all knew this would probably come because it's been many years of just free online exposure and all that kind of stuff. And I'm a big advocate. When you do that, you stay very business. Don't go down any other avenue. You know, don't bring in anything else. Every now and then on Face Instagram, it's all my paintings. On Facebook, I did find collectors and gallery do like to know a little bit about who you are. Like I'll post something about my sons, you know, or it would be something like that. They like to know there's that little personal side, but don't go under any other avenue. And you keep it very businesslike. And the reason why galleries want, they need to know they don't they don't want to know you know what your belief is in this and blah blah blah they want to know how well they can rely on you to get them the paintings they need to talk to their collectors to you know go meet their collectors. They want to know that very business side of you and that little bit of personal, you know, whether it's your your kids or or something else. But galleries watch this. You know, you may not know that, but galleries do watch that.

Jason Polins: 36:19

All organic, and it's not something that I have figured out how to repeat yet. But what I what one of the things that I did for for social media, which is only insert, I do want to I I do have a what a TikTok account, but I really ignore it, and I do want to sort of play with that. But I just don't really want to play with social media that much. I think it's all very interesting, but the thing for me, the idea of social media is it's it's gaming the algorithms. That's it. It has zero to do with the people on it. the The people aren't are going to be finicky, and they're they're going to like something, and they're not going to follow you. You can't guarantee who follows you. You can't guarantee who likes something, but what you can do is you can game the algorithm, and it changes all the time. So it's not a one-time fix. It's like, like now it's been. I think it's been like a month and a half since I since my account exploded. So whatever I did a month and a half ago doesn't exist as an opportunity anymore. It's gone. It existed then, but no longer.

Brian Bateman: 37:22

Social media has helped to a degree, but as we were talking about earlier, the algorithms have changed on Facebook, where it's not as conducive to the artist as it was five years ago, and now they want you to. They will help you, but you have to buy ads. You know, you have to buy this. You have to buy that. You have to. You have to buy. I guess credibility to to to reach higher audiences. I still wrestle with that. I still post on Facebook and Instagram. I think Instagram's a better way to go, but just for the fact that Facebook isn't as good as they once were regarding artistic marketing. But I still do that. I still do my web. You know, I do a blog. I had a blog in OPA recently where where they reached out and wanted me to do a blog. So I did a blog regarding you know a passion for history. You know, find your niche, find what you love to do. So that really helps. This interview with you really helps. Getting out there and and having an audience that who may have heard of me, who may not have heard of me, and give me a chance and listen to what what I'm trying to get across and share and life lessons, I appreciate that. That that really helps.

Unknown: 39:00

But yeah, I mean, social media in the art world is not something I'm unfortunately. It's not something I know enough about to be able to say. But yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure that the more following you know, the bigger following you have, the more art you're going to sell. I mean, it's just it's, but it you know if you have 20,000 followers on Instagram, it doesn't mean you've got 20,000 buyers. You know they're they're not the same thing. I think it's been the galleries have had a very important part in my in my professional life. I for sure. I mean for them to have been invited me for the first time, I still remember who that was, and and I'm very very grateful to that. But to me, all has worked. You know, I do a lot of ads. You know, it is expensive, but I I trust that it's going to work out. And thankfully, up to today, it has worked. And now it's about. Keeping the deadlines because I I put contracts with the magazines for so many ads and when you're working on commissions and you don't have that much work around you know you can't put your commission on in an ad so that's that's a little bit hard but I'll tell you something that's really interesting almost everybody that knows me know knows that believe it or not, I am an introvert with an extrovert profession. I'm fine with small groups, but I'm not like a social butterfly, you know. So, but I am very open about who I am, and almost everybody knows, you know, that what you when you talk to me, you ask me. You know, I'll tell you whatever. So I have my social media totally open.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:49

Two specific repeatable tactics to close out

the practical stuff: 40:51

Karen Blackwood on the once a year event she runs just for her collectors, and S. C. Mummert on the surprising thing that happened to his actual paintings once he finally understood marketing,

Unknown: 41:03

I actually have one collector that is one of my best collectors who found me online when I lived in Michigan and bought a piece, and continues to buy my work out here now, and I've had her to my home. And I usually will have a once a year salon show at home where I invite only my collectors or future collectors, kind of like a way to just show them what I'm working on, so they become you know friends, and I value them. And then through my galleries, I would say, you know, they maintain a really strong relationship with collectors. And anytime I'm working on a new piece, they'll make sure that collector gets to see it, and then out on social media, you know, people get to stay in touch.

SC Mummert: 42:07

What happened to me about? I'll make it up here because it's it's it's almost like I can't tell what a year is anymore because a year goes by for me. It feels like about 90 days or something. It's just it's pretty odd. But so I'll just say like four years ago, maybe five years ago, I I became disgusted with my own lack of understanding about marketing, and so I went ahead and put the brushes down for I think like six weeks, which is quite a spell, and then began to just read everything I could and try to immerse myself into this and really get a better understanding on marketing, and which helped. All that was beneficial. Then I went ahead and found a couple of coaches. I, in fact, I'm I'm still working with a guy out of Australia, and there was another guy out of. I was I was getting coached by two guys. One out of Australia, the other guy out of Atlanta, Georgia, and I'd have these weekly coaching sessions. You know when they were helping me with marketing, and and that transformed me also because there's it's it's it's very comprehensive actually. And what happens when you begin to understand and get a better grip and and dig into marketing, it actually helps you in the creation of your art. You wouldn't think it would necessarily, but what it begins to do, it helps you start to get a grip on your audience that you're creating the art for. And so, for example, like we'll just use Nashville, that maybe that's the center for country western music. We'll say those guys know exactly what their audience is. You know, I and when they craft a song for their audience, and they they're making a song that they enjoy, that they love making, but they also understand what their listeners and what their audience what will appeal to them, and so it's a win win. And so what happens once you begin to understand marketing and maybe building an avatar for the kind of person you're in fact trying to create your product for, and so forth. And I'm not saying make something that you don't like. That's not my point. But the the very the very best thing that can happen is that you find something that you enjoy making, and you find out it's also happens to be something that the audience is seeking, and so when you when you when you have that convergence like that, which is happening in my own life, frankly right now. So when that when that happens, then you have the best of best of everything because it's all synergistic, you know. And so, but that a lot of that understanding with with marketing and so forth continues to affect almost everything that I do right now, including concepts for paintings and so forth, and you know that creative element that's it's a little mysterious even to me. You know that how you can kind of put all this together and and go to sleep and wake. Up in the morning, you've got an idea that maybe you didn't have when you went to sleep, and maybe your subconscious has worked on that. Whatever, I don't know. But the bottom line is that something pops out, but this marketing element actually influences that as well. You know, whatever you whatever pops out of you, you know, and then that again affects what you end up producing.

Laura Arango Baier: 45:21

Anticlos is out. a reframe that might make this whole topic feel less like homework. Christopher Remmers on marketing as an extension of the creative process itself, and on why, if you're just starting out, none of this should come before your craft.

Christopher Remmers: 45:34

And you know, one thing that's it's a shift for me around that conversation of like art making and marketing, and a couple points, but the first is that for me, I started seeing them being intrinsically linked, like they have to be in order for me anyway. That like I was up against this wall where like marketing was this thing, like it is for a lot of artists, where it's this like elusive, you know. It's like oh well, that's like a different part of my brain, and I don't operate that way. I'm a creative. I don't do these things, or it's really hard for me. Da da da da da. And then I like really tapped into the storytelling. That's like to me what seems like a really critical component of marketing. And I was like, this is just an extension of my creative process, and it like flipped it on its head for me to where it was like, oh, like I get to use marketing as a way to like tell a story to engage with people and build relationships, right? And which at the end of the day, it's like what I'm trying to do. It's like sure, I'm trying to sell paintings, but I'm actually trying to create experiences for people. That's like what I'm really after, and so like getting that to sort of be this whole kind of synergistic thing that's happening is really, I mean, it also just makes it to where it's enjoyable now. You know, I mean, yeah, there's like elements of it that's a slog, and you got to do this stuff. But it's like it's exciting to invite people in through that element of storytelling that I think is important to marketing. The other thing is that I kind of taking a step back from that. It totally depends on where you are in your development as an artist, and in the sense that, like, I think for some people, they really need to just not worry about marketing, and they need to level up their craftsmanship. You know, like I talk to a lot, a lot of people. They're like, oh, you know, I want to like have a website and newsletter and like do marketing, and I'm just and like, and I look at their work and I'm like, you are just starting, you know, and like if you onboard all of this marketing work and the business side of things, you are going to overwhelm yourself. It is a tremendous amount of work on top of learning how to paint in a way that feels like it's masterful and meaningful, like just focus on your craft first. You know, get that dialed and then think about it.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:50

That's marketing from the artists who've actually had to figure it out. If you take one thing from

this episode, let it be this: 47:54

build the relationship first, and the sales tend to follow. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next week.