Rich Nelson: 0:00

I guess I'm a fan of concise advice, so to speak. My friend Bart Lindstrom said says step one is get really good. Step two is get it out there. The better you do step one, the easier step two is going to be.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:21

Welcome to the Faso Podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a BoldBrush. My name is Laura Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For today's episode, we sat down with Rich Nelson, a signature member of both the Oil Painters of America and the Portrait Society of America, with a career that grew out of an unlikely star touring in a rock band before formal illustration training pulled him toward fine art. In this episode, he breaks down Sargent's blunt advice that you can't shortcut your way into portraiture. You have to become a real all-around artist first, mastering anatomy, landscape, and still life before you ever specialize. He'll also make you rethink what goes in your portfolio with a simple rule: never show work you don't want to get hired to do more of, because clients will always call back asking for exactly what they saw. And he shares a deceptively simple habit that's opened more doors for him than almost anything else. Reaching out to other artists and asking real questions, and maybe even visiting their studio. If you're anywhere near Tyron, North Carolina, don't miss Rich's stacked 42-piece solo show at the Tyron Fine Arts Center up through October 17th, and almost entirely painted from life. And this October, his plein air painters of the Southwest crew rolls into Charleston for a week that culminates in a can't miss group show at the Meyer Vogel Gallery. Welcome, Rich, to the Faso podcast. How are you today?

Rich Nelson: 1:50

Oh, I'm doing great. Thanks so much, Laura.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:53

Yeah, I'm excited to have you because you have such an interesting all-around experience with many arts besides painting, as I have found out, you are also a musician, which I love when creative people just decide to jump around because I think it feeds so much of our creativity to do just more than one thing. So I'm excited to talk to you, and of course your gorgeous portraits. So before we do discuss more of that, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Rich Nelson: 2:26

So I am Rich Nelson, and for Google reasons, I went to my full name, Richard Christian Nelson, about 20 or 30 years ago. Because when you would Google Rich Nelson, Google thought you meant Ricky Nelson, who I love, so just to eliminate that confusion, I went to the full name, which a lot of portrait artists have three names, so it's worked out fine. And luckily, Google knows who I am now. But born in Detroit in 1961, and grew up there, and started art school when I was 23 after being in rock bands through high school and after, and luckily our school in Detroit, the College for Creative Studies, had a real solid foundation, and they put me into a lot of fine art classes, which is a little sneaky, but a real blessing because all of a sudden I was studying anatomy, figure drawing, basic painting, things like that on the fine art side. Even though I, the idea was that I was going to be an illustrator, which there was still a lot of illustration happening in Detroit in the 80s, who knew it was kind of on its way out the big illustration studios and such. But I knew people in the advertising industry, and I thought, well, that'll be fun to do. I had always drawn and done a little bit of painting, watercolor, and such. But when I graduated, I began working as an illustrator. But that seed was planted from, and I ended up taking anatomy two or three more times. And then they asked me to teach it at our school. And boy, if you really want to learn something, decide to teach it. You know, because when you're having to lecture, it's a lot different than being there, you know, in the as a student when you're having to actually draw out the lectures of bones or muscles or surface anatomy or what have you. So that was great, and all that while too, I was continuing to practice figurative drawing at our little scarab club there in Detroit, which is all in the cultural center, where our school and the Detroit Institute of Arts and Wayne State and other museums are, so it was really wonderful to immerse myself in that world, and I and even my the studio I worked in for seven years, the art studio, was nearby in the new. Center area, and then I did go freelance after seven years. As things were starting to kind of wind down, a lot of this you can kind of attribute to the incoming computer and some changes that were taking place. A lot of the things that we did in school, people don't even know about anymore: key lining, making camera ready art, etc. A lot of that was just changed by the computer and the internet and such. So, but luckily, I had been drawing and painting the figure. Essentially, we had a weekly class I started where we'd have the same model pose for every Wednesday for the whole month. So you could do a larger painting, get your composition or drawing planned out in those first week, week or two, and then at the second part you could complete a large painting, 30 by 40 or what have you. So that was wonderful. And then when you're doing that, I started selling some paintings and galleries around Detroit, and also somebody would ask you to do a portrait. It's just kind of natural, and I started donating portraits to our public television telethon they used to have back then because I thought that was the most like what I've ended up actually doing, where you meet somebody you don't know, and you go through the process. Because I had heard from a lot of artists like, "Oh, portraits-it's terrible, you know. And I thought, "Is it really terrible? So, so by doing that donation and meeting somebody and going through the whole process, I I was like it seems good to me. I like it, you know. And so then I met a portrait representative from one of the portrait agencies there in in Detroit area, and and I got connected up with my first agency I think in 1999. And also another big thing that happened then was I submitted some slides to the second Portrait Society conference, which was held in Chicago. The funny thing about that, I don't remember entering, but I got a notification that I had won an honorable mention, essentially. And so, since Chicago is just about a five-hour drive from Detroit, I I drove over there, stayed with a friend of mine, and went to the conference. And it was one of those moments, you know, like these are my people. You know, it was wonderful. Just and now looking back, because this is 26 years ago, you know, Evergreen Kinsler Dan Green, Bert Silverman, William Draper, who our grand prize is named after, Cedric Eggley, Tom Nash. It was wonderful, even though it was much shorter in those days. It was just really two two days, and morally safe. did the keynote. That was cool, but that after that, I was done with illustration essentially, and started getting commissions. And a lot of them were in the southeast, so I was coming on these long trips. So in 2004, my wife said we should just move down there, so we moved to Western North Carolina in 2004, and it's it's been really great. And I've just been we've been here 22 years. I've never lived anywhere for 22 years till now, but but it's been really wonderful. We raised our kids; they were two, four and six when we moved down here to this little town of Tryon, and it's it's been really a great life to this point.

Laura Arango Baier: 8:52

Yeah, that's wonderful, and it also seems like it feels a bit serendipitous. Obviously, hindsight 2020, it's easier to connect the dots, but it is kind of cool that you know, even you had a sense of like, oh well, portraiture seems kind of cool, and then that kind of led you down, you know, the the path because I feel like some people are really really sure of what they like, and other people just kind of come across things and then they land exactly where they're supposed to be, and it feels very mystical, you know.

Rich Nelson: 9:26

Yeah, it's. I look back at the when I applied at art school. I had actually applied at a culinary art school because I was playing in this pretty successful rock band in Detroit called Bittersweet Alley, and like we had songs on the radio and stuff, and we were playing with big acts like Bon Jovi and Cheap Trick and Eddie Money and the Rockets and and such. So it was a little counterintuitive, but I don't know. I'm just kind of a traditional person. I wanted to get married and have children, and and I would see a lot of the old rock and rollers. Which is what I am now, by the way. But I would see these guys, and I'd be like, "Man, I got to find something else to do. So I thought I've always loved to cook, and I I still love to cook. And but the program I was with this very popular Polish chef, and they had a Michelin star restaurant called the Golden Mushroom at a three-year wait. I'm like, I can't wait three years. Like in your 20s, even now, three years is a long time. So I had friends who were in art school at Wayne and at College for Creative Studies, and I thought, well, I'll check this out. My mom had had said, you should go down and check out CCS. When I was probably in high school, you know, but I was like, no, I'm going to be a rock star, you know. So, but that voice was ringing in my ears too. And when we recorded, I would always draw. So by the end of an album or whatever, there would be all these drawings of World War II airplanes, scantily clad women, and all these things. So yeah, it did seem kind of natural at the time. And then I graduated in three years by doing my academics in the summer at community college, and just as I was about to graduate, Schoolcraft College called to say I could start the culinary art program, and I was like, I went to art school, you know. And over the years, I've realized that's such a tough gig. I think being a chef, you know, and that whole restaurant thing. So I feel very lucky there. But also that when I did go to CCS, that they put me in all those anatomy, anatomy figure drawing, basic drawing over on the fine art side. That was, in hindsight, those two things of just deciding to go check it out and then having whoever. I'm sure they were just trying to beef up the fine art department because there were always fewer people there. Still, there are fewer people in fine art than there are commercial art or whatever you want to call it, graphic art, illustration. So that ended up being a huge blessing. That I had nothing to do with it, you know. I was actually a little upset when I realized I'm not an illustrator. I thought I was going to be learning airbrush and you know mechanical drawing and all those things that we ultimately did learn, but ended up being a huge blessing. So very grateful for that.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:30

Yeah, yeah, and again, it feels very just going with the flow type of type of style. And actually, did want to ask you too. Do you find the same that the the source of inspiration for your music is the same source as the inspiration you get for your paintings.

Rich Nelson: 12:48

You know that's a funny question because I've realized I they're in a way they're the same. I think they come from the same core, which is just the universe wherever creativity comes from. But they're actually very different in that with music, you wouldn't know it from listening to our band or whatever, because we're pretty much like a '70s rock band. But it's really more abstract. In other words, it's like the equivalent of walking up to a blank canvas and just painting, right? Which I never ever do. Like I'm, I'm always out in the field looking at something, or I'm in a studio looking at a person, and I feel as an artist I'm more of a renderer, and that might just be the illustration training or what have you, because it was really fun to learn how to render, you know, and it's never ending. But you're once you start to discover, you know, light, shadow, color, warm, cool, anatomy, like it's so much. But then when you do it, I always say when I teach, like like my goal as a teacher is that when your family and friends look at what you do, they say, "Did you do that? You know, because that's those are those leaps where it's like where you're the people you're surrounded by look at your work and go, "Did you do that? You know, like you've made this quantum leap. You know, and and it's such a great feeling when that happens. So, but music it just comes out of nowhere, and and that runs a pretty wide gamut. I started on piano and guitar, and and I went through like you know all the basics with my older siblings, you know Beatles, Stones, and Bob Dylan, Creedence, all that stuff, and then into like glam rock when I started playing David Bowie, Els Cooper, Queen, Monte Hoopoe, and then Prague rock. I went through a heavy Prague rock phase, and even like fusion in high schools, and kind of emerged back into just this. What you grow up with the rock of the 60s and 70s. But but other than that, when I play my guitar, luckily my wife lets me sit and want. TV and I can play guitar quietly, and she doesn't give me too much guff. Every now and then, she look at me and be like, you know, like it's getting a little loud. But I'm really blessed that she allows me to do that because I don't know if I would be able to endure it my own self, you know. But but you're just noodling until you'll hear like a chord combination or or a riff or something, and then I make little voice memo recordings and go back to them and sometimes flesh them out. That's what ultimately becomes songs. Or else, if you're playing with with friends and and something cool comes up, but so I feel like that is much more of I use the word abstract, where it just comes out of nothing, you know. So it's funny you ask me that question because it's kind of weird that you're. I feel like I'm doing both sides of the, because I've never done abstract like painting myself, you know.

Laura Arango Baier: 15:57

Yeah, yeah. Do, and this is obviously side question, but do you find that maybe you had studied like music in a formal setting in a similar way that you studied anatomy for painting? Do you think you probably would have approached music differently or about the same?

Rich Nelson: 16:16

Yeah, that's a good point, honestly. And I was I'm a little bit of a rebel, honestly. And so my older brother Pat took piano lessons for like 14 years, and he could sight read anything. He was a wonderful musician. He's passed away in 2015, but so but I don't think Pat ever wrote a song. And whereas I started writing songs in probably ninth grade or something, so I think that's your point, honestly, because he was so adept at reading and scales, and he could play classical, and he was in the jazz band in high school and such. So, yeah, I think that's exactly it. I suppose if I had just been on a desert island and found a bunch of paint and canvas and no instruction, who knows what would have happened, right? So it is. It is. Yeah, even as a kid, my work was much more conceptual. See, because that-that's what you lose when you become a renderer, which I almost use in a disparaging way, you lose a little bit of the conceptual, right? And that's. But you know, I just accept that's just. We're all going to fall somewhere on all of these things that we're going to talk about. Your understanding of art history, your understanding of anatomy, color, value, composition, coming up with concepts like we're all going to be somewhere on each of these this range, you know. And I don't know. I guess being a a renderer could be worse, but but I am envious of people who have these intense concepts, you know, in terms of visual art. That does, especially when it's something that I connect with, then it really moves me, you know. I I I I'm very envious when I see that.

Laura Arango Baier: 18:21

That's so interesting because sometimes I do wonder that myself about you know being a trained artist and how I can see if I go back to like my paintings in high school I can definitely see the shift but not so deep that it's like oh it totally changed who I am I think in some cases it is great because, of course, it sharpens you a lot. But at the same time, it's the influence of it is it can be inescapable. So, but it's also good to you know. I think it would be nice to dabble in abstract just to help you know break open the psyche a little bit, kind of like how you're saying, you know, doodling, diddling onto your onto your guitar, but with painting, you know, or you you maybe I don't know if you know, there's an artist out there, Vanessa Lemon. She just puts an abstract thing first, and then she finds shapes in it, and that I think that's pretty interesting as a concept. But you know, we all figure out our our path as painters as well. And of course, since you do portraiture, you have clients, and that can be very different from making personal work. Which I did also want to ask you because earlier you mentioned that a lot of artists said that portraiture was terrible, and I have two questions about that. It's like, why do you think they said that, and do you think being a portrait artist takes a specific type of temperament

Rich Nelson: 19:58

to do? Is it? Well, the I still remember these people specifically, and even my my mentor Russell Keeter, who was the anatomy teacher at CCS for many many years, he did not like Tony Portes. I mean, I've heard from a lot of different people that they didn't like it, and you know, it might hark back to what we talked about because he was very conceptual. He did not need models to do figurative paintings, and some of them looked very otherworldly in a sense. Or it was often a lot of figures in classical worlds, like it felt like a classical world, and but and they were beautiful. So I think the idea, like we want the chairman of the board, you know, and he just didn't like being told anything about what he should do, and so probably it's people that wanted to hang on to more of that conceptual side of working where they go in the studio. That's that's sacred to them. That's that's where they don't want anybody telling them what to do. So I suppose being an illustrator for 13 years really does ingrain in you like this is how you're making a living. This person has called you. They want something. You're gonna do everything you can to make them satisfied and want to call you again. I have always said to my wife, whenever a check arrives in the mailbox, we have to like stop and say, "How did that check get here? You know, and it could be from sitting next to somebody in a restaurant, or you know, any kind of random thing. Usually, it's more than that. You've contacted an agency and you've tried to be represented by them, and you've done all these things, you know, to get to this point. So I don't know. It just becomes part of your nature because that's that's how we raised our family. Kim was able to stay home with the kids, which was great, and until they were like in high school, and then we opened some galleries. So, but I think it's not for everybody, and especially I always say when I teach, enjoy the ups and endure the downs because you're going to have them, you know. And so when you're in one of those down periods, just know that it's going to end, you know. It's not perfect. And also when you're in one of those up moments, enjoy it, you know. But don't do anything crazy, you know? Because I am a little crazy, you know. Don't take off all your clothes and run around and say weird things to people, you know. Like I have to kind of rein it in and just be like,"Oh, how nice, you know, because I have found myself in amazing situations, you know, unveilings in federal courtrooms and posthumous portraits where everybody's crying and just all these different situations and I guess I am a people person and I enjoy that and as long as I know like I can do what I need to do in this situation to to fulfill my part of the deal you know so I don't know. It could just be tiny, you know. They could have just done their first portrait and gotten a bunch of grief, you know. You know, I used to used to do a self portrait every year, and my mom passed in 2017. But but she would always say,"Oh, you're much more handsome than that, and I'd be like, "Oh my gosh! Like, you know, it's like nobody's ever happy with what you do once you really are trying to get into you know you know it reminds me of something else we were talking about too. I always thought that since I went through so many musical phases that as an artist I might go through these different phases. It hasn't happened. Like Sargent is still my favorite painter. You know what I mean. I'm just when I see an artist who is using you know natural color and drawing to bring some new. That's what I love about social media. Everybody's complaining about social media. My social media feed is amazing. You know, like oh look at this painting Kyle modded. You know it's like oh my gosh, like how do these people? And I always he'd like 25 years old, but but it's inspiring, you know. And you just go, it's just like music, right? Every now and then you'll hear a song, a new song, and you'll be, or even an old song that you didn't know about. But you just go, it's all the same stuff, same 12 notes, and same instruments, same basic recording setup, and you're like, that is just so great. So that's constantly inspiring to, just to see what we're capable of, you know. But it is funny to me that my my taste really has not shifted, you know. I'll go to I. One great thing about being a portrait artist is that I travel. Bit and I'm always going to all the museums and galleries, and I'm still just attracted to the same things. You know, I don't know. I guess at this point, I'm I'm okay.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:13

Yeah, and and to some extent, you know, that stability of your own taste is a good thing, especially as a portrait painter, because if you started painting people in in a different style, it might you know it might make your work less recognizable to people, and that's something that's useful. I mean, if it's something that you like and it's how you do it, you're recognizable, and that's you know one of those things that people chase actually, especially people who jump around Between styles, or they're very changeable, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with it. But business-wise, a lot of people always recommend recognizability and stability in your style. And of course, like I said, for portraitures, it's probably quite useful and good. Which actually, I wanted to ask you too. If someone wanted to become a portrait painter, a professional one, what are some of the key business and artist things that they should be really keenly aware of?

Rich Nelson: 26:15

Well, after going to like 25 of the 27 Portrait Society conferences that we have every spring, you do hear a lot of the same things over and over, and then you see some themes kind of emerging. So the basic answer to that is: Does everybody really love Sargent? That when somebody asks Sargent how to be a portrait artist, he advises them: you have to be an artist, and you have to be able to do everything. And then eventually, you may paint portraits and such, but you have to learn all the aspects of being an artist, and which, yeah, art history, understanding, of course, anatomy, but perspective and color theory, and getting out there and painting landscape, learning with still life, and painting interiors. So to just try to be a portrait artist is probably a bad idea. You kind of have to have a certain amount of general artistic education, but then I tell people go to the portrait society because it's just done so well. So they get you know 1000 people there. The finalists are amazing. They have 20 finalists usually painting, drawing, sculpture, and then I tell people it's like if you were a comedian and you could go for one long weekend, and there's Jerry Seinfeld and there's Jay Leno and there's everybody that you've ever loved, and you can and also new people, young people, and you can talk to them. They're giving presentations. They're telling you from their heart, like how they did what they did. You know, because we're all going to be different. You know, Jay Leno is not worried that some other person is going to steal being Jay Leno because it's not possible, right? So I just think that's a great analogy. I don't think that exists for a lot of things. You know, I don't know. I'm no expert. I know writers have, you know, different things they can do, and actors and such. But it really is a wonderful organization, especially for young people. They, you know, both the Oil Painters of America and Portrait Society have now instituted programs for people under 25, you know, and and they bring those paintings to the well. OPA brings the paintings to their annual salon, and they recognize these folks, and and so I think that's really exciting. But ultimately, Between the the internet and all the different things available there, and all the people who are willing to teach, like I have on my website a whole three-hour still life lesson that I start. It started as a DVD, and then when the last DVD was there, I'm like I'm just gonna put this thing on YouTube, right? So it's basically all of my approach to painting, you know, which is just a distillation of all things I've heard. You're probably not gonna find anything brand new there, but and that's what we all do. We take in everything around us, and then we figure out our approach. This is the palette I use. This is the subject I like to paint. This is what I like to paint on. These are kind of brushes I use. Blah blah blah. So it's all in there for free. And many artists have done this same thing. And you know, another little secret is most artists are open to visiting their studio. This is a habit I. Got in early on as an illustrator, and are corresponding with you, and I've mentored personally many artists, probably two dozen, and some have just come and lived with us, you know, and and I've invited others, and I don't know for whatever reason they have not, but most artists are very open to people. Love talking about themselves and their experience and what they've been through, and particularly if it feels like a good fit. And that's what you can learn at the Portra Society. You can say,"This person's work I just love. They seem like a nice person. I'll buy their book or their DVD or I guess they probably don't even have DVDs anymore, but their Patreon or what have you, and connect with them, and you know then you're off to the races.

Laura Arango Baier: 30:56

Yes, yeah, definitely talking to fellow artists, you know, and that's the other thing-just talking, being able to talk to people, right? And that's something we kind of discussed the other day because it's-it's one of those unwritten rules of being an artist. I think that it is important to talk to people and know how to talk to people. It's so important. Do you find that that has has been a key thing for you? Is that something you ever struggled with?

Rich Nelson: 31:25

No, I've always liked to talk, and even as a musician, this is a little-you know-there are always these parallels. So in music, like some people in our band, which had been together since junior high, they were like, "Oh, those guys stink! That's terrible! Did you hear their new record? That's awful, you know. And they, you know, and then I was always like, "I kind of like their new record. And then I would go see them and go get on stage and play a song with them, and so I was always seeing other musicians and making friends with them, some of whom, many of whom I'm still friends with and such. So I mean, friends to some degree, still in contact with, and and that just makes your life richer. So there is that's kind of you know you hear like in Stephen Covey's Seven Habits this idea of a an idea that there's there's enough for everybody, or there's just a little bit, and there's I'm gonna get it, and I and you used to find that a little bit with some illustrators. Why would I tell you all my secrets and such? Very rare, though. It's always a small percentage, and it just kind of closes in on itself. And then, but most people are like, especially if it comes from the heart, if they like the song they did, and you like the song they did, it's like you're gonna have a natural connection. And so, it's the same with art. Like if you love a painting and and you tell somebody that you you really like it something about it or what have you, just that you really, it's you know people love that kind of connection. That is a huge part of what we're doing as artists, whether you're a portrait artist or a gallery artist or teacher or what have you, you know that is the secret sauce. And now, and we can also tell when it's not real, right? Like there was always that person in class that was doing like this amazing work, and and you'd be like, that's amazing. They'd be like, it's terrible. We're not making a connection here, but in general, most people you connect with, and you know, you don't always hit it off. There might be something that just kind of is a little awkward or what have you, but 90% of the time it's like it's good, you know. So I've never had a problem with talking, obviously. And and when you're with somebody that that you connect on a level like that, it's it's it's to me it's it's a synergistic situation, you know. We're celebrating the fact that we're on this rock flying through space for a tiny little bit of time, and we're having a human connection. It's pretty awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:14

If you've been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guest live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, the Faso Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you're a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you're stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don't miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next Faso Show webinar is coming up on the 10th of September with our special guest Daniel Gerharts. You can find the sign up link in the show notes. I totally agree. Yeah, it's easy to get caught up in the moment and be you don't just take things too seriously. Especially when you're younger and and you feel like life lasts forever, but then of course as you you grow older and and life happens, you start realizing, wait a minute, it doesn't have to be that serious. I can I can actually enjoy things and not beat myself up over silly things that I'm not even going to think about like next year, you know. So totally, totally. I also wanted to ask you, since you mentioned that you did illustration and you were doing freelance for a while. When you were doing freelance, were you already in transition form towards becoming a fine artist, or was it like day and night? Was it just all of a sudden you just cut loose and went for fine art?

Rich Nelson: 35:48

Well, all of these happened with like certain events, variety of events. So graduating from art school at the end of 87, beginning to work as an illustrator in '88, and then those seven years were really nice. That was the perfect place for me to be because I did a lot of everything throughout school, even as a musician and as as a student. I did everything. I was illustration and fine art. I was doing photography, key lining, lettering, all kinds of different things. Airbrush, mechanical drawing, figurative drawing, because I, you know, I, I guess that's just my nature. So then, as an illustrator, I had a wide variety of things that I was doing, and and it was nice when I went from being in the studio where I had a decent salary and benefits and such to freelance where like if you do a$3,000 illustration like 30 days later you get a check for $3,000 I was like whoa this is amazing but then we got married and eventually we had our first child, and then 9/11 happened, and that was a big game changer. And then simultaneously, the computers like coming along, and all of a sudden, art directors don't need illustration. They've got other kinds of ways of generating art from stock art, stock photography, and you know, it used to be there would be art director, designer, or hiring a studio to do design, and then they didn't have on staff illustrators or photographers and such. And suddenly, you just have one person like my niece that was doing everything, you know, and working till midnight and not making much money. This is for like you know Corvette, you know, for big clients. So the the upshot of the computer was all of a sudden you didn't have all these people going to lunch, you know, and going out for dinner and all that stuff. It really got pared down, and then so that was part of the impetus, even though it seemed challenging to. I'm just going to become a painter, you know. But I've always made this analogy. It's my life has been kind of like there's this raging river, and like there are these rocks, and so I jumped out of the music rock to the art school rock to the illustration rock to the you know painting still rock to the portrait rock to the moving to North Carolina rock you know and thank you Lord that these rocks have been there because I don't know what I would have done honestly so I do feel very blessed, very lucky, and I've been happy to do the work. I don't mind working hard, you know, but sometimes you can work hard to no bail. And luckily, the work has generally paid off in the sense that we were, you know, there were some rough years because then we got here, and then the 2007, 2008 recession. That was a big one, man. We'd be going to school, and it's like, where are such and such? And they'd be like, oh, they lost their house, and they had to move home with their parents, you know, in Augusta or whatever it was. And you'd be like, damn, this is real, you know. Plus, like, I'm not getting commissions. That's when, that was the charcoal portrait rock. All of a sudden, I was asked to do charcoal portraits, and I have done 1000 of them. Which, if you subtract those 1000 charcoal portraits, which basically cost around$1,000 each, I don't even know what we would have. We probably would have moved back to my parents' basement, you know. So. and but that was great too as an artist because I think when you paint a lot, your drawing, my drawing, was getting a little lazy. You know what I mean. And when you do 1000 charcoal drawings. You become much more confident in your drawing, which you use in your painting. Like when you've got to say, "Where is that highlight from that eye? or whatever it is. Like, like you're not just like, you know, like you you kind of literally no. So again, that was a great thing that that happened. So, and I don't do as many charcoal portraits anymore. I did draw in the face off at the Portrait Society this last April, and and that was that was pretty cool, you know.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:40

Yeah, that's awesome, and yeah, it's you know, it's like you said earlier, where you have to endure those low points and make do with what you got because that's I think that's one of the prices of the freedom we get with this type of career, any kind of creative career where you know you're an entrepreneur and you have have to do things for yourself. That's the price of that freedom is the lack of surety about things. Like you know, one moment you're making bank, which you should totally be putting in a bank account and saving it and not touching it. Like you said, you know, don't go crazy. And then that way, you know, in the low points, you're not feeling like, oh no, I have a $7 million house that I gotta pay off, and I can't, you know. Which who would do that? But some people are crazy. But yeah. And then I wanted to ask you also, at this moment in your life, what does success mean to you, and what do you think is the cost of success?

Rich Nelson: 41:50

So, I tell our kids and my wife and I, my wife Kim and I talk about like this. Like life has many different subjects. Going back to music, it's like those graphic equalizers, you know, where there's like 24 different little faders that you can adjust. So there's, you know, yeah, there's your work, you know, and how you feel about your work, and but there's so many other faders, family, children, you know, a fate for each child, and in your spiritual life, your physical life, your friendship life, you know. So if you can get all those things, and then really, honestly, you have to develop a hierarchy. Like, what is the most important? You know. So it's interesting to ask yourself, what are the most important things in my life? You know, so when I have done that, I've come up with life. Because without life, not that I cling to life tenaciously, but like obviously, there's no point figuring out the most important things in life if you're not alive. But life, love, you know, which is love everybody, your family, your wife, your fellow man, and everybody. Health, because they say if you don't have your health, or if you have your health, you have everything. It really is true, man. And like just having a toothache or whatever, you wonder throughout history, like if some of the tyrants just didn't have a bunch of molars that were swollen or whatever, you know, like who knows? So yeah, life, love, health, and opportunity. So that's what we're talking about: opportunity. And I did have my oldest brother who was also passed. Tom, he he said to me, I once said I was lucky, and he said, "You make your own luck. So I think that's kind of what we have to do when we're independent or self-employed or trying to rely on our paintbrush or our guitar or violin or whatever it is, so yeah, you have to just do whatever feels natural to you that is going to get you to where you want to be. You know, I have a cousin who's was the president of Jack Daniels, and he's a year older than me, and he's retired. And he's the perfect combination of really intelligent and really personable, really smart and charismatic. And those two things don't always work in concert, right? And but he he gave a great little. We were just out for a hike when we were up there in Louisville two weeks ago, and he said, "Because my wife is dealing with, she's kind of got a big job now where she's managing people and stuff in healthcare, and she went back to school and got her master's just before the pandemic, and so she's really busy. So that's part of my job description now is just to make sure everything's copacetic around here, and that we have a little bit of fun now and then. But Mike was talking about strategy because you know there's so much stuff you hear, and he said strategy is simple. It's like where are you, where do you want to go? And what are you going to do to get there? You know, and I was like, "Whoa! Like that is genius, right? Like it's so simple, you know. And you can imagine that Brown informant had all these consultants and departments and experts on all that stuff, but that he was able to distill that down to that simple thing. So success, yeah, it's a combination of all these different things, and you have to develop this hierarchy. Each of us personally, you know, and then and then just hope for the best because we're not in complete control, right? Like a meteorite could come crashing through the ceiling here, and that would be the end of that, but but the parts that you can control, right? So yeah, that's that's a that's a big question. What a success, you know. So I just turned 65 last week, so it looks a lot different now than it used to. I can really see that now. Like it's it's it used to be success used to be like do we have enough to pay our bills this month? You know, and now I suppose it looks different. And honestly, like we were talking about like how I went through those phases musically. If I all of a sudden started working abstract or my style changed, whatever. I'd be really open to that, but it just hasn't happened, you know, musically or with visual art. But I-that's kind of another thing-is like, what do these next years hold? You know, I would be really open to a lot of different things. I'm I'm serving on two boards. I'm I'm open to doing more kind of whatever you want to call it, like charity work, you know, because I think that type of thing, giving back is very important. I'm open to teaching opportunities, you know, so mentoring opportunities. So it has changed over time, you know, and and we'll just see. You know, now the big thing is the big thing everyone's talking about is AI. So it's going to be very interesting to see how how that affects things going forward. And our kids are all in their 20s now, so you know honestly they're kind of bleak about the whole idea that they'll be able to do what Kim and I have done. You know, raise a family, own a house, and I don't know. I'm very optimistic, though. That's just part of my nature. I just believe like it will work out, you know. Despite obviously, you know, we've had a number of in our life. We've had a number of things that have been kind of some heavy knocks and such, but which we get through them.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:58

Yeah, yeah, and I think attitude is like you just said, it's it's so important because the last thing you should ever give up is hope. You know, things could always improve. Nothing lasts forever, even the the down times, like you said also. But yeah, we are in a strange strange time. There's a psychologist that I really love, and she described the current situation, with you know, she meant it about children growing up with around social media and the internet and how it affects them. But I think her her analogy is is you can apply it to everything, which is we're building an airplane in the air. We don't know if it's going to fly, and we don't know where it's gonna end up. But we'll just have to stick around and and hope for the best, like you know, like you just said. Yeah, and then I wanted to ask you also, business wise, a little bit more for artists. What do you recommend for someone who wants to make a living as an artist. I know the times are different now, but I think the advice is usually pretty solid through the times. So, what would you recommend?

Rich Nelson: 49:13

Yeah. Well, my friend Bart Lindstrom. I guess I'm a fan of concise advice, so to speak. My friend Bart Lindstrom said says step one is get really good. Step two is get it out there. The better you do step one, the easier step two is going to be. So, and I've seen this kind of echoed in other people, actors and writers and different artists, because it's funny-not funny, but one of the blessings of being a student is you're kind of inspired by your own work. You know, you do one of those drawings that people are like, "Did you?" That and you just want to get it out there, and you're you you always think you're ready, and you're always excited. I mean, I was generally, and now in hindsight, you're like, oh my gosh, like that was terrible, or like that was the only good drawing I did that whole year, or whatever. But it's like, but at the time, you're inspired to keep doing it, and you want to shout it from the rooftops, and so I suppose that's the time where you have to try to be a little more strategic, like cousin Mike says. And you know, where are you? Where do you want to be? What's it going to take to get there? And that's really the same thing as Bart's advice. And it's great to be enthusiastic about what you're doing, but at what point? And you know, it's the same with music too. And people will let you know. They will if you have a show of your work, and nobody's really excited about it or what have you. Then, then you know, like usually there's consensus in like if if a number of people see your work and they they they might say I really like that one and usually they're talking about the same one and and it might not often I would find that wasn't one that I liked or what have you and that's just a curiosity, you know. You still have to just follow your own heart, but ultimately, you have to get to where, like when I was an illustrator, and especially as I became a freelancer, where I'm the one going to these art agencies, or when I was talking with portrait agencies for the first time, hoping they would take me on, I had to know, like these are good. Like this is good, you know. And and it would be corroborated by by the people I was showing it to. Didn't mean I necessarily got a job or got picked up by that agency or what have you. But um, and then obviously marketing is people are very aware of that, so yeah. Once you are on the right track with the quality of your work to get it out there, in a way it seems easier, you know, but in a way it's probably not because it's just a different set of problems, because there are so many people out there, you know. Again, to use the music analogy, so it was hard to get a record deal back in the 50s and 60s, or what happened. Like the Beatles got turned out by every record company in England, so it was a challenge. And then when it happened, and if it worked, it was amazing, you know. And that's how every band that we know of, pretty much, unless you're into really obscure music, got to be popular. Now I I forget the number. I'm not good at remembering numbers, but some 100,000 albums get uploaded to Spotify every day, you know, and and these other websites like Bandcamp and so music is is there's just a lot of music because it used to be had to go to a recording studio and you know make an album and get it into stores and have people buy the records tapes or what have you, and record companies would oversee that, and then people would do it, you know, independently as well. But now it's all at our fingertips, right? So, is it easier to be recognized as a musician, it's easier to get it out there. You can record at home and and upload it to SoundCloud, but does that mean it's going to connect? You know, on a large scale. So, you know, again, we just deal with the reality that we have. You you you just want to be doing the best work you can do, and then get it out there, which might be a little easier. And then that's another great thing about Portrait Society, Oil Painters of America, and some of these other organizations is that you can go and talk to people, connect with people. Obviously, as artists, we we try we enter competitions, and we hope to win recognition that way. And that's that helped me, you know, a good bit. So I'm a big fan of that. The statistics have changed dramatically. If I entered that painting that won an honorable mention in Chicago today, I don't think it would get very far. You know, they probably got you know three or 400 entries back then in 2000, and and now they get 3000 entries from around the world, and so it's just statistically less likely. But they also have if you join the Portrait Society, which is under $100 to be a member. You get newsletters as well as they have a members-only competition, so those numbers are going to be more friendly in terms of getting recognition. So yeah, you just have to find find your people, whatever. If you're a marine artist or if you're an aviation artist or whatever it is that you love, you know. But I guess I'm always talking about being a portrait artist and being a. I also one of the things that happened around the time we moved here was I had started doing landscape and still life due to a friend of mine, one of my students, Richard Seaman, who did come and live with us for a few months before he went and studied in Florence with Dan Graves, so yeah, that it is picturesque around here with the foothills and waterfalls and rivers and all these things that we have in this area. So that's been a joy, and I've also been lucky to get into this group of the Plain Air Panes in the southeast, and we have these different excursions, two excursions a year. We're going to Charleston in October, and and that's great. A lot of camaraderie, and and these are folks who don't have portrait commissions waiting for them, so they have to generate studies and maybe large paintings on site, or take the studies to their studio and generate paintings for galleries. Maybe they have a half dozen galleries, and and have shows and teach Patreon workshops, whatever. So that it's really, I love hanging out with these folks and seeing how they run their their creative lives. It's it's it's very especially as technology changes, very interesting. So yeah, I think the key is to just expose yourself to as much that resonates with you, while also protecting that little bit of you that is just your creative life, and figuring out how to merge those those things. And it'll take time, and there will be ups and downs. And you know, if you enter a competition and you aren't recognized, but you really respect and enjoy the work that does win, that's that's actually awesome, you know, because now you've got another year to try to to do work that is on par with that work, you know. So there's we don't have time to wallow in self pity or resentment or whatever. Maybe a second, maybe just a little bit, but then but then get back out there, you know.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:38

Beautiful, yes, yes, yes, and I guess I did want to ask one more advice question because I'm very curious about these portrait agencies. Is that still something that a lot of people use to to hire portrait artists? And can how does someone get into an agency,

Rich Nelson: 58:02

so that's an interesting point because when I was first interested in portraiture back in the late'80s, those same kind of questions were asked. Like, is that still, is that a thing? You know, it's it's like guacamole out there. But the answer is yes, and it's been a huge part of my life. So, but it's changing all the time, like everything else. So when I started out, there was my first agency was Portrait Source, which is near here. Which is how I ended up spending more time here, and ultimately us moving here. And then there was Portraits South over in Raleigh, North Carolina, and then there was there was Portraits Inc. in Birmingham, Alabama. Well, in the ensuing years, Portra Source has merged into Portraits Inc. Portrait South went out of business, but a lot of those reps they were wonderful. They started their own smaller company. So there are two companies that have come out of the closing of Portrait South, not to mention all the reps. So a portrait agency will have principals and an office, and then maybe anywhere between 10 and 100. No, not 100, but 50 reps in different towns, usually bigger towns, you know, and some towns will have two or three reps, like in Atlanta or what have you. But then, and some reps will have helpers, you know, that they're bringing in, you know. So maybe they've been doing it for a long time, and now they have an assistant, and sometimes that works out, and sometimes it doesn't. And then they might represent between 50 and 100 artists, and and in a sense, these artists are your competition. But in a sense, they're not because we're all different, and all our price price points are different, and and we each control everything about our, you know, how long does it take to do it. What is our portfolio? You know, you build your portfolio, so you have to be careful to only have in your portfolio things that you would actually want to do. Because if somebody calls from Nashville and says, "I just sold four of those boardroom portraits, and you're like, "I hate doing boardroom port, you're like, "That would be a bad thing. So you want to be like, "Yes, you know. Honestly, that's a funny point. That's how I knew it was time to go from illustration to portraits. Because when the phone would ring with illustration, that's another funny story. Because sometimes it was like joining the mafia. Like they say, we just want you to do one storyboard, and it's like a month goes by and you've done like 20 storyboards and four animatics and all these things and it's great heyday. But you've been working late and and really hard. Sometimes bringing in other friends to help out and then one day you take in the last little thing and then then you you're like you leave and you're like that's my last job. I'm never going to work again for some reason. I don't know why we always thought that, but then, but when the phone rings for a portrait, I'm generally pretty excited, you know, like universally. So that's a good sign right there. And so another interesting point about the portrait agency. Obviously, you have to get in with portrait agencies, and they're pretty selective because there are just a lot more people that have the luxury of of being artists. You know, we're not having to run the family farm and go fight wars and all the things that generations before us had to do, so we can study things. You know, like whatever you can be, a ballerina or whatever it is, and so a lot of us are electing to study figurative art and portraiture, and so they get a lot of a lot of people asking to be represented by them. And again, it's going to be the same thing, you know. Step one is get really good. Step two is get your work out there, and the better you do step one, the easier step two is going to be. And with portraits, yeah, you want to be, you would want to. It's like any job application, I suppose. I don't know much about the business world, but you would want to know like about these companies and the kind of work that they do, and and where you fit in, you know. And honestly, if you have kind of a ancillary approach, like I do, watercolor portraits of houses or pets, or I do pen and ink drawings of, you know babies you know anything if you that's honestly a way especially if it appeals to you then then you that's that might be a bit of a leg up to get in and also in the portrait society you know they want to see stuff that's a little different. So anyway, you'll have to calculate. You know, maybe you just want to do grand manner portraiture like Sargent, and then you just are going to have to get really good at and just show six. You don't have to show 25 pieces, and and they each have on their website how you apply. You know, so this is like galleries too. Like a lot of people, we've had galleries. A lot of people come in and they got their paintings or their grandma's paintings in the trunk, and we would always be cool with it. But if you go into some gallery in a sophisticated place, and they're gonna say, if you go to our website, it'll tell you how to apply. You know what I mean? So you gotta kind of do a little bit of research, you know. It's good to be excited about everything, but take a deep breath and try to get a handle on how how that's. And it's always great to study, you know, study the old masters and study the masters of recent times, and then study the people who are, you know, just doing really well. That maybe are just newer, and and then send them an email and say, "How did you connect with this? or or whatever. Ask whatever question you have. Maybe take a workshop with them. I don't know, or visit their studio, and then then you'll start to get a sense of of how to best approach some of these different things? You know, Faso is a great thing. You know, that's been a wonderful way for me. I do a newsletter every month, and I think I have about 1000 or 800 something subscribers. And I don't know. It's it's really good for me. It's like a personal inventory every month, and it's kind of like a diary, honestly. Now, after all these years, I think it's been about 15 years, but but they have a monthly competition, right? And they get a lot of people coming. The company's done really well, so I judged it once. I was like, oh my. Gosh, like I cannot believe how many pieces there are, but but you know honestly, if I was a teacher again, like in a college or university, I would that would be one of my assignments. Go judge, because all the that's all right there, right? Anybody can go look at all of that month or the previous month or a year ago's month, just pick a month. I don't care. Pick August of 2023, and and you judge it and explain to us why, and look at all the different categories and tell us why this is the best, you know, landscape and this is the best. Because what a great thing to get a sense of everything that's out there. Because a lot of what we do as artists, we're like, we're honing in on this one painting or this collection of drawings or whatever it is. Like, don't forget, like, there's this whole world out there, right? And that'll help you kind of attenuate to, to where you want to take your stuff, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:58

Yeah, yeah. That kind of reminds me of this really cool thing that Alan Watts said once about the only way to touch the tip of your finger is with another finger. So in order to know yourself, you have to know the other, because that teaches you what you are not. But he's like, you can't touch the tip of your finger with your same finger, yeah. Use something else, and I think that's such a great analogy for self knowledge because it's so hard to touch the tip of the finger with your own finger. Yeah, awesome. And then, do you have any upcoming shows? Any cool upcoming stuff that you've been working on.

Rich Nelson: 1:06:44

Well, so yeah, I have a show up in our little town of Tryon, which is just an idyllic little spot. We're between Asheville, North Carolina, and Greenville, South Carolina. It's in our county, Polk County, only has 20,000 people, and Tryon only has about 2000 people. So you're probably surrounded by in a quarter mile radius of more people than we have in our whole county, and it's it's agricultural, and we have an equestrian tradition, which we're not equestrians, but it's been fun to learn about those things, and it's really beautiful, and they're trying to preserve the agriculture, and and so Tryon's just been a great place. We have a lot of retirees, and we have a lot of creative. We have like a little theater group and arts and crafts group that does more like jewelry and woodworking, ceramics, and then painters and sculptors. Where I organized a group every Wednesday, 11 years ago. That's another thing I do like to point out is you can start a group. Like so often people are like, "There's no group near me. I'm like, "Hey, if you're literally there's nobody around, you can probably get a mirror and do self portraits, draw your hands, draw your feet, and get books like Andrew Loomis's figure drawing for all it's worth and take the do the Charles Bark course and get Richard Schmidt's book if you're starting to paint. So even if you're isolated and solitary confinement, like there are ways. Hopefully, you know I don't mean to make light of that, but if you have access to certain things, you can advance your Creative skills, but then, but then, yeah. Even in this little town, we've managed to. If you add it up, that's like 500 weeks that we've had somebody usually different. We've painted a few people more than once, but generally, that it's a different person every week, and and that's just like I did at the Scarab Club back in Detroit in the '90s, and so yeah, there's I have a show at our Fine Arts Center that opened last week, and it's up till October 17th, and and that's just kind of an interesting collection at this point in life of new old landscape still life figurative drawing painting. There's like 42 pieces, and you know I was really happy when I hung it up because one of my goals was to just work from life, and I realized after I hung the show that there's only one painting that I used photographs for, which is a painting of our son Luke at 15, which was a finalist in the Portrait Society, and but other than that, everything is just done from life, you know, landscape, Wednesday night head studies, and other drawing groups and such. And our this group I belong to, Playing our pans with Southeast, so we are having a show down in not a show but like a week. We do two events every year, so we're going to Charleston for a week in October, and that will culminate in a show at the Meyer Vogel Gallery. And these are great artists, many names. That you know, I'm sure. So that's just so fun to be with them, and and also my good friend Kyle Buckland is a musician, and so he and I we jam like for we bring our acoustic guitars and we play for like four hours. It's crazy. He's he's really good at just busting out into singing, so that gets me loosened up, and we'll do everything. So that that's really fun. And then that group is coming to try on next April, so that'll be something to keep your eye out for, because all these shows have online shows and such. That's an opportunity to pick up a piece from one of these artists, like Katie Cundiff or Richard Oversmith or you know Bill Farnsworth, we just have a lot of terrific artists. Ann Blairbrush I don't want to start mentioning names because there's 40 of us, but it's really it's so cool to hang out with them. And we don't all make it to every show, but there's usually 25 to every event. But so keep an eye on Pepsi. That's a wonderful group, and they're always looking. We we usually add a member or two every year. So if you're a landscape artist, that's something to aspire to, and and virtually everybody in our group teaches. So if you see somebody whose work you like, or if they live near you, visit their studio, maybe check out how they teach, and so that's. I just think that's a great way to to further our our our you know what we're doing. And then I generally get to the Portrait Society conference, which will be in Washington next April, and to the Oil painters of America has a number of events. You know their national salon, and they're just they're just it's just great. They're just very inspiring. You know, so I always encourage people to jump into that. Especially, I like to encourage young people now that that you have your own separate category if you're under 25 with each of those groups, and so submit to that, you know, that's a good way to put your your your work out there.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:12

Awesome, yeah, totally. And then if someone wanted to see more of your work, where can they see it?

Rich Nelson: 1:12:20

Oh, so of course I have the website richnelson.com or richardchristianelson.com. Both URLs take you to the same place, or richnelsonband.com if you're a rock and roller, and then yeah, each of these groups has. I'm a signature member of OPA and Portra Society, and so they they have a you know I have a YouTube page. They have stuff about about all the different artists that are involved. So it's out there. You just if you just Google Rich Nelson or Richard Christian Nelson, it's out there. And feel free to send me a message, and you can sign up for my newsletter, and if you're interested in that, and yeah, send me a message. I'm always happy to look at people's work, and a lot of times you can. It's funny, like critiques. I'm not a big fan of critique. Like, hey, critique this painting, but but like we have portfolio critiques at Portrait Society, and I'm always just a fan of like, hey, you know, who are you? Where are you from? Show me your work. Where are you as an artist? And and invariably people will critique themselves. You know, like I have to work more from life, or I have to work on color, or I have to make better photos of my work. Whatever it is, like they will confess to you immediately. Like, and you're like, that sounds great. And then at that point, you can say, like, have you heard of Andrew Loomis's figure drawing for all it's worth, or Richard Schmidt's alla prima, or have you? Do you know about Charles Barg and maybe more academic approach? Like, you can make like an informed thing that can really maybe resonate with them. So yeah, I love interconnect. You know, connecting with other folks, other creative people, and such. I I still visit studios all the time. I just visited Scott Burick and Susan Lyon, and whenever I'm out and about, I'm like aware of like, who lives near there? You know, I can go say hey. So if you're near Tryon, North Carolina, come and visit me.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:32

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd love to visit because it's been a blast talking to you.

Rich Nelson: 1:14:39

Well, thank you so much, Laura. That's great, and I have to come visit you because my great great grandfather lived not more than 100 miles from where you are right now. Isn't that something to think about?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:52

Yeah, yeah. It's again back to that interconnectedness of things that you. Really, never know, but you have a closer connection to a person that maybe thought you had nothing to do with. So your strangers are sometimes friends that you haven't made yet.

Rich Nelson: 1:15:16

Yeah, and my little brother was there, and he's like, "These are my people. Like you know, like, and we were in Ireland last year, and I was like, "Oh my gosh! Like, these people look like my brothers. You know, it's it's very interesting, or my cousins, and so yeah, we're all connected at some point. You know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:37

for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Rich, for coming onto the podcast and regaling us with all your anecdotes and incredible advice. I'm very, very grateful.

Rich Nelson: 1:15:48

Well, thank you so much, and keep doing the great work you're doing.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:52

Thank you so much.

Rich Nelson: 1:15:53

All right.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:54

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