Lori Woodward: 0:00

All the marketing in the world, and all the techniques in the world will not sell a piece of art if nobody wants it. It's got to compete in the marketplace, whichever marketplace that you choose to sell to.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:19

Welcome to the Faso podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips, specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For our season 14 finale, we sat down with artist and veteran art marketing writer Lori Woodward. Lori shares how she went from burnout after art school to rebuilding her skills through workshops, portrait commissions, and writing for major magazines and art organizations. She explains how learning directly from successful peers, mentors, and collectors shaped her understanding of how the art market really works, which is very different from generic marketing advice. Laurie breaks down the impact of the 2008 recession, why so many galleries and careers collapsed, and why today's market, despite economic anxiety, is fundamentally healthier and full of new, younger collectors. Throughout the conversation, she emphasizes that no amount of marketing can replace a cohesive, competitive body of work, consistent production, and a recognizable voice that develops only through years of painting, experimenting, and failing forward. She gives practical guidance on pricing, working with galleries, outdoor shows, email lists, and social media, stressing that real relationships and in-person experiences now matter more than chasing algorithms. Ultimately, Laurie encourages artists to build a realistic vision, move slowly but steadily, and design a career that fits their personality, whether that means becoming a local favorite, gallery regular, or a small-scale part-time professional who still sells meaningful work. Welcome, Lori, to the Faso podcast. How are you today? I'm doing very well, and I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, and I'm so happy and excited to have you, because you have so much experience with art marketing. You're also an artist, so you're not just like on one end of, oh well, this is what works. It's like, no, you've actually experienced this yourself, you have, you know, this, the ability to see something that works, and to be able to actually do it. So, I think this is going to be an excellent episode for all our listeners who have tons of questions about the new world we're in, in terms of art

Unknown: 2:39

marketing,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:40

because things are changing as you always do, so I'm excited to have you for that reason. So, thank you for being too. Yeah, of course. But before we dive into all the delicious, wonderful information about today's marketing world, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you

Lori Woodward: 2:59

do? Okay, well, I've done a lot of different things over the years, of course, like you know, most all the artists on your podcast. I started out drawing as a young child, and I'll just tell you a little story. We won't get into all the details, but I was probably about four years old, and my mom had some little original oil paintings, they were, they were miniatures, and I had taken my crayons and I drew on the walls, like a lot of kids will do at that age, and no, that didn't go over well, don't draw on the walls, so I got a bright idea to improve on these little oil paintings with my crayons, and I believe that some of the crayon is there till my sister has the paintings, I think it's still there, but you know, I think kids that that are going to be artists that just have that innate curiosity and willingness to do it, they just, they can't help but not do it, and there are some artists who, you know, started later in life, but they're generally creative people you know when, when they find that, so I started out. We'll get into some of your questions. I think that I will, you'll learn more about me as we go, but I did have a fine art education major at the U of A, and like most universities, I never saw a demo. They wanted abstract work, they wanted something. I was so silly that I kept drawing the model or painting the model. I had one really good. Teacher, but he retired while I was there, and I could not get anything above a C or a B to save my life, but I was on a scholarship, a four year scholarship, so I needed to see it through, so I saw it through, and then I went back to nursing for a year, I said, well, I gotta get a job here, and I was going to teach high school, but those kids were going to kill me, I think. I, I kept the teachers kept asking me for a pass on one of our field trips, so, so then I, I got married. We moved back east to New Hampshire, and I worked at a computer company testing software for 10 years, and I absolutely love that job, and I didn't do any - I was totally burnt out on art after college, so I didn't do any art at all. And you've heard this story from many artists, you know? I think Matt Smith, he's one of my mentors, he describes almost the same thing, and I went down to the university. It's nothing's changed there, nothing's changed as far as what I never saw the professor's work. Sometimes they didn't even show up. So anyway, I saw it through, and then in the 90s workshops were exploding everywhere, so I started taking workshops, and that didn't happen in previous years. That opened me up to learning and seeing demonstrations, and it was mostly watercolor, because watercolor was huge back then, and so I took a lot of watercolor workshops, and then I studied with Sandra Freckleton and Jack Beal at an invitational summer workshop for six summers, and she taught me how to control watercolor. She was German, so there was never any mistakes to be made. There were no happy accidents, and I liked that, because I was able to learn how to methodically paint with watercolor, and my expectations. I met my expectations. There wasn't any. It was all planning, and it was really cool. I really enjoyed it, and then, and then I, after that, I started taking oil lessons with some local teachers and stuff, and, and in about the, you know, 2001 2002 I started getting into art marketing, and I'll, I'll tell that separately as we go through the questions, and I was selling it, my work, my watercolors at outdoor shows locally in Maine and New Hampshire, and I just loved that once I was set up and meeting the people, and, and I just thought that gave me a real education, and about how to sell art, and my colleagues, which were local artists at our art association, we met for breakfast on Wednesdays, and we talked business, and, and I learned everything from them, and some of them were extremely successful, and sold, and outdoor shows, the galleries, and made some of them, made a one of them, which I'll discuss later, made $100,000 a year after gallery commissions and fees, and she mentored me in business. So, later on, I, I got hooked up with.. I went down to the port. I was just doing a ton of portrait commissions in both water, mostly watercolor, a few in oil, and I went down to the Portrait Society of America's, I think it was their first or second convention, it was down in Reston, Virginia, and somehow I ended up offering my writing. I was writing for Watercolor magazine about other artists at the time, and I started writing their newsletter and editing their newsletter. I met a guy named Calvin Goodman, and at the time he mentored some of the most famous portrait artists, other artists. He was the guy who was the art marketing expert. He was featured in magazine articles, and he started mentoring me, he. And after a while he realized I was very interested in art marketing, and I was learning so much from him that he asked me. He says, "Well, I'm coming out with my latest edition from my art marketing handbook, but I don't know a thing about websites, because I'm he's in his mid to late 70s, I don't know, and he said you seem to be pretty comfortable with this stuff, my husband was a soft software engineer, he was creating my website at the time, and so I said, well, yeah, why not? Why don't I write a chapter on websites? I already write. I'll do some research. My husband will work with me, and I, what I did was, I, I had heard that Kevin McPherson had this cool new website where he could upload and maintain on his own, and I thought, well, that's the future. So I contacted Kevin. I don't remember how, probably through his website, I don't know, and, and so Kevin and I had a phone call interview, and he said, you know what, why don't you, why don't I give you Clint Watson's telephone number, because he's the guy who created my website, and I'd already been following the gallery that Clint was writing a website for. He designed websites, and so I called Clint, and Clint and I had a great interview. His name and Kevin's name are both in the book, but you can't find the book anymore, because this was like 2001 and when Calvin passed away, the book kind of passed away with him, and everything had changed. Websites were pretty archaic back then. You had, you had to make sure the images were small, because they wouldn't upload, and stuff like that, you know, so that's how I got started with Clint Watson, and then I continued to write for Watercolor Magazine. Eventually, when my art was good enough, and it wasn't good enough, I wrote about other artists for a long time in 2007 working very hard to improve my work. Steve Doherty, the editor in chief, said, I said, is my work good enough to start doing an instructional column? He said, Yes, it's stunning. So I always ask, and I'm never insulted if they say no, and so I started my own column, column, then, so that kept me very busy for a long while, and at about that time I had a faso website, and as soon as I got that up and running, my husband's like, you know, what, I don't want to, I don't want to do this anymore, I don't have time. He was still working, and I said, and I don't want to bug you, I want one of these websites, and they're so reasonably priced, and and I started blogging right away on my website, and somehow Clint Watson noticed my blog, and this had to be years after the interview. I don't know how he came upon it, but he said, I think I know her, and he, he subscribed to my blog, or what was it back then, RSS, like I can't remember, but he, he contacted me and asked me to, he was the only one writing the daily newsletter back then, and he asked me to start contributing to their, their what they called fine art views, now I think it's Face away, faso way faso

Laura Arango Baier: 14:23

way, yeah,

Lori Woodward: 14:23

yeah. Okay, he asked me to start contributing, and I contributed weekly for nearly a decade, and that allowed me to do a lot of research interviews. I just meet people naturally, I meet people, and I also started writing interviews with collectors that I met through Richard Schmidt's Putney painters and shows a lot of artists as I gained. Um, oh, what's the word, not a reputation, but as, as people became familiar with my blog, and artists, full-time career artists became familiar with my blog, when I called them to interview or contact, they were happy to give me answers, then I started emailing them, and after the recession, and saying, which didn't hit art until 2010 It took a while, but, but those artists were more than happy to tell me exactly what was going on, and I didn't always mention their names, unless they wanted me to, but I gathered a lot of statistics and real-life experiences for what was going on. That's what went into my blog, was not theories. I wasn't that kind of art marketer that that says, oh, here's the protocol, and you should do this, and this, and this, and this, because I found that a lot of times they weren't artists, they didn't really, they were marketers, but they didn't understand how the art market is completely different than every other market, and every venue and every level and every type of buyer or collector can be completely different from another type of buyer collector, so I wanted to get real life stories from artists from all levels, and I've, I learned a lot, and I want to get back into that now, because I, I just, you know, being, I just turned 70 this year, and I'm thinking it's time for me to contribute, because I've done a lot through the years, and I just want to, you know, I don't need the money anymore, I want to contribute, so that's a long nutshell, but that's pretty much how I got into all this art marketing. So, let's see anything else that you want to know.

Laura Arango Baier: 17:11

I mean, yeah, there's there's a ton that I want to know. I think it's very interesting that it seems like you got into art marketing almost by, by chance, like almost like a side thing, instead of directly, like, oh, well, this is something I'm interested in. It was, I'm sure, it came from, like, necessity to some extent, right? Being an artist, actually,

Lori Woodward: 17:34

actually, it wasn't necessity, because I'm curious, and I notice things and patterns of artists. I think the interest in art marketing outweighs my interest to paint, and always has. I worked at a computer company. I, you know, I just like.. I'm a little bit, you know, I love to write and interview people, and I'm a little bit, you know, those tests where you see if you're left or right brained, I'm right down the middle, so I could go either way, and most of my art was produced as a result of teaching workshops and step-by-step articles. I had to have an article ready for every issue of Watercolor, which was quarterly, and I wrote for other magazines too. Workshop magazine, I went to the workshops, and I loved that. And I have to be honest with you, this will work into the marketing talk, because it takes a certain kind of person to make a living at art, and I'm not one of them. I cannot spend 40 to 50 hours or more alone in the studio. I feel like I'm in jail. I have to have an outside reason to create a piece of artwork which involves other people. I actually love going to art openings, even if I'm not at in the show. I just love meeting the artist and and the people and the collectors and I've no, I've known some gallery owners for 25 years, and whenever I see them, they're always like, here's a new thing we're doing, and you know, this is how marketing's working, so you know, I just love that, but I do produce artwork, and I have sold most everything that I've produced in one way or another, but I'm a people person, so.. so let's see, what else did you want to know here?

Laura Arango Baier: 19:53

Um, well, I kind of want to circle back a little to the recession, okay? Doesn't he? Recession, because I think today we're in a very similar situation. I think a lot of people are feeling tons of economic pressure, and it's very, very reminiscent to the 2008 recession. I've actually interviewed quite a few artists who survived through it, which is amazing to be right. I was not at the age where I was worried about my income when it happened, so it's interesting to hear about it, but I also want to know, we are in a similar situation today, but not entirely, because, of course, there's the internet. What would you say is, you know, compared to the market crash of 2008 is totally different for artists today who want to sell their work and try to make a living today.

Lori Woodward: 20:49

I think the the 2008 situation was unique, and it hasn't happened again. There's always been recessions, the 2008 2008 recession really wiped out a lot of artists who were making very good livings, and galleries closed left and right because it was connected to the housing market, which was everybody was investing in the housing market, and what happened that really hurt living artists is that there were big collectors before 2008 I went to, you know, I painted in Richard Schmidt's group, and he invited me and the runner of Village Arts and Putney to go with him and Nancy Guzik out to Denver to the governor's show and and I met avid collectors, I mean 250 paintings, I I know a couple that put a wing on their house for their extra Schmidts and stuff, his his market was never hurt, actually, but what happened was with the 2008 is that people lost with the stock market, including us, we were pretty young, but we lost half of our life savings in our 401 k overnight, and, and that was okay, because we weren't near retirement age, but a lot of the collectors at that point were people 50 and older, and they lost a lot of their investments, so you know, in the markets, and they thought, "Oh, bright idea, here we go. I'm going to sell my art collection on a secondary market and make some money back, but the problem was that a lot of collectors decided to do that, and they absolutely saturated the market with secondary works of living artists that they bought recently, and I can think of artists, not only did they not make money, but it just brought down the price of all the artworks, except the long dead ones, pretty pretty quickly. It started about 2010 and I know one artist who, I mean, the art market was so hot before that he was a New England artist. I won't mention his name, but he was selling at several galleries, and this happened with other artists that I knew. They'd have a wall full of art, and a collector would come in and buy the entire. these were expensive paintings for the time. Buy the entire wall of art at once. And so this artist was making $40,000 a month. And then he went after the the recession hit the art market, he went from that to not selling any paintings for 18 months, and he had a wife and two kids in college. Well, he didn't, couldn't have the money for college. Fortunately, he prepared financially for bad times, and the best artists, the artists who are older now, who were, you know, probably in their 40s and 50s back then, they survived because they prepared, they had six to 12 months living expenses in the bank for bad times, and as they put money away. Times were good because they lived long enough to see that it could happen, and then other artists out west quit their jobs and got other jobs. They quit art because it was just sitting there, and they needed to feed a family, so they, one of them, went back to school and got a degree for a job that he knew he could have. Now he's painting again, you know. After the recession happened, I don't think we'll, we have returned to anywhere near that kind of situation in the art world. I think that I actually think that the art market I'm I know a lot of artists that are doing very, very well that have been painting all along, and I think the art market is actually doing extremely well, because it's not the same kind of buyers, for instance, I mean, there's several layers, but at a recent auction, I think it was Jackson Hole auction, I was listening to podcasts with the guy who runs it, he says there are there are collect new collectors in their 30s and 40s, and one of them bought a Remington watercolor, and he was young. I looked at the results, it was $790,000 He says, "We're getting new collectors who, who had the means, who were buying, who are getting into collecting. I see a lot of new people, especially, you know, in their 50s, 40s, getting into art collecting, and this has never happened before, is at least in my lifetime. It's always been older folks, but these are.. I mean, it is.. it is a hot market, the Western market, no doubt about it. The Eastern market is completely different. The Western markets, all it's getting more and more contemporary. The new West, the auctions, the museum shows, and I know that I know of artists that recently came from out of nowhere, but because of the quality and the of their work, they just went to the top right away, and they're one of them is in the Prix de West, and five years ago no one knew who she was, Rachel Brownlee, and you know she's young, I mean it, it's exploding now. I think most of the art markets are in the East Coast, in the West. The New York market is not doing all that well. People want the younger, the younger collectors want more contemporary, and I think that they like that on a lot of levels. There's still very much room for traditional type of art and and the Eastern Galleries, it's a calmer market, it's old money. Richard Schmid used to say it's old money back there, and they're more, their homes don't have soaring ceilings, and you know, so they're, it's a more intimate type of art. They love landscapes back there, especially of where they have second homes and in tourist areas that are seasonal, and, and in the West. In the West, it's sort of a different crowd. In the West, I've heard two to one collector, one art gallery owner, and Scott Steele say that people actually do and always have bought these high-priced artworks by living artists or dead to flip, they, they buy them, and they few years later they put them back in another auction, hope to make profit. They're not truly, they're investors, but there are still a lot of really art lovers out there, and so people like me and my friends, and I, you know, I know some of the great artists and great collectors, but I'm never going to be a superstar, and I don't want to be a superstar, and I'll tell you why before we answer one of your other important questions about how does an artist get into the market and move towards making a living at art. I don't want to be a superstar because I'm not willing to do what's required. To stay there even if I could, even if my art were, you know, spectacular enough to to gain that kind of visibility, and where galleries, gallerists were calling me up and saying, we want your art, we want your art, because I'm already selling, you know, it, and that's not going to happen for me, but I know even more artists personally who have made a living who are selling pretty much everything they paint, even if they've got another job, no matter where they live, and there's a protocol that needs to be followed to get there on any level in any place, and it takes a long time, and I think the internet, and especially watching people, you know, the cameras sped up and everything. Our brains begin to think that we should be painting a lot faster, when in reality, slower is faster. You will gain more expertise and control over your work if you just slow down and just give yourself six months to to a year to create a body of work, which is something that I want to talk about in depth, because marketing, all the marketing in the world, and all the techniques in the world will not sell a piece of art if nobody wants it, it's got to compete in the marketplace, whichever marketplace that you choose to sell to, so, so I want to talk a lot about body of work, and I think you asked a question here. You wanted to talk about how artists can prepare and begin to make a living at art. Well, Calvin Goodman told me that this was, you know, around the year 2001 2002 that make over 10 net over 10,000 a year profit is point oh 1% Yeah, now I personally know artists who make a heck of a lot more than that, but there is no shame in making for an artist to be a local celebrity making 20 netting, I'm talking about profit, $20,000 a year. How many of you out there listening would be happy with that, I think. When you're actually doing it, it, it creates real happiness. Now, some artists are going to go on to make a lot more of that. You have to be consistent, you have to be prolific, and you have to have a continuous, cohesive, recognizable body of work, and what happened to me, I mean, I made all the mistakes early on, is I was showing in a local, it was a frame shop, and back then they sold prints from print companies, but she also sold originals from local artists, she had, she was in an affluent community, and that's almost a requirement, and people were in there all the time to get their artwork framed, so she had a solo show. I probably put up about 15 paintings that I had done in watercolor. I'd probably taken five years. I don't, I don't remember. Took me a long time to create that body of work. Well, a couple came in and bought almost all of them, and and then I sold every single painting in that show, and the show wasn't supposed to be over yet, and she said, Well, what do you got, you know? And I learned my lesson the hard way, I said I don't have anything, I don't, I don't have any work for you, so being productive with a developed style, and I'll talk about that a little bit, because that can be very loose and. I know I can use examples of artists who, who do a lot of different subject matter, but it's, you know, it's that artist's work, so you have to be the kind of personality that can pull this off, just can pull off creating that body of work consistently, consistently learning, improving, focusing on at least maybe work in a series for a while, you can change, you can change what you paint, but get started with something you know that's going to be cohesive, make at least just, just don't, don't be posting everything before you're ready. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard it, and other artists have heard it, even artists who are making a full-time living now. That when they first approached the galleries, the gallerist said, "Yeah, you're good, you're on your way, but you're not ready yet. And I heard that too. I was ready and selling it outdoor shows, I was doing well, but I wasn't ready for a commercial gallery, and you might ask why. It's not because I wasn't consistent, it's because my skill level wasn't there yet to compete with the other works they had on the wall, and in some cases, what they had on the wall was nationally known artists, and so I went to the resort areas in New England. I did end up working with some galleries. You wouldn't know who they were. They sold my work. I didn't have any replacements because I was too busy writing and doing other things, but I could have made it. I absolutely could have made it. So, so you have to have that body of work. 20 works would be ideal. Frame them all with the same frame, because if you end up doing outdoor shows or art in the park or other shows in your booth, you don't want it to look like a patchwork quilt. You don't want it to look like, please don't buy used frames at antique shops and fix them up and make them all different. You want to look like a professional, even you fake it till you make it. You've heard that so, so much. You want to give people the impression that you're in this for the long run, so that when they purchase your work, they have something to brag about. They love to brag, or a conversation piece in their home. And I learned a lot of these things from a woman named Monique Sakalarius, and she lived in New Hampshire. She's in her 80s now. I don't really know how active she is, but she is the one that made over $100,000 consistently every year, and I think she painted about 200 paintings a year. She taught me everything about getting into galleries there and showing it, outdoor shows, how to talk to people. Oh, she was amazing. She'd be people would come up, they knew who she was, because she ended up being a local celebrity, and people would come up to her booth, and she wouldn't be just sitting there reading a book, she'd be standing there, or she'd sit on their eye level, because it's about communication. If you don't know how to talk to people, just smile, ask them where they're from, or what brought them to the show, just start a conversation, and she would, before you knew it, I just watched her. She's taken a painting off the wall that they love, and she's putting it in their hands. They haven't even said they're going to buy it yet, but then she's wrapping it up, you know. Anyway, I was never like that. It worked for her, but she worked in, oh, maybe six or seven gallery commercial galleries too. She sold it outdoor shows that were juried in New England. She'd come home with $10,000 cash in her pocket. I mean, she was the perfect example, and I know artists who are still doing outdoor shows. They're doing them. I know most of them are in New England, and they're smaller, they're more internet. They do the same show every year, and sometimes when you're new to the show, you don't get noticed, because people know who they're going to buy from before they get. Baer never do a show that has crafts or children's activities. It doesn't bring out art buyers. It has to be because the it has to be fine craft, but it can't be something that you could go home and make because that's a different crowd. You want, ideally, you want it to be even if it's not Jude, you want it to be two-dimensional art. You want to know that other artists have been doing that show for the number of years, and you want to know what their sales are, and it brings out the same people every year. So, I've actually gotten into galleries by doing shows like that, because a new gallery, what they go in Maine or Cape Cod or something, they'll go to the local show to find artists, and I got invited into a gallery that way. You have to be open to opportunities, you have to be friendly, but your work has to sell. They, I'll tell you, it's not a secret, and Monique used to say to this, this to me, she said, gallery gallery owners only care about one thing, will their clients buy your art, because if they don't, they're going to go out of business, they do you know that even back I don't know what they are now, but like the the rental fees on on Main Street in Scottsdale, Arizona, used to be between 40 and $60,000 a month, and they had a staff and they had lighting. Can you imagine what would happen if they had a couple bad months of sales, they, and that's why during the recession it was like a ghost town, there only the gal, the galleries that stayed open that had been open multi-generational, like Trailside and Legacy, they stayed open, but they carried a different set of artists, and a lot of the other galleries did, so, so let's get back to the difference now today, and I thought about this, and today I see a huge move of people who are, we'll talk about collectors, and there aren't many collectors or patrons anymore. There are art buyers, but they're tired of spending time online. They don't go to Instagram, although I found that if somebody says what kind of art do you do, and I'm in a social setting, you know, line dance or whatever, I will just pull up the first page of my Instagram, you know, which has like nine images on it, and I'll say they're like, oh, wow, you know, they're they're not art collectors, they look like photographs, you know, that's what they say, that's a compliment, that's all they know to say, and and so I say, well, if you'd like one, just click on it, you'll get a bigger view, then they click on it and I leave it at that, and then we go on, and we just do other stuff, because I don't - I have learned over the years not to tie anyone down talking to them, because they don't know how to excuse themselves, and if you're an outdoor show, you know how they will excuse themselves, is they will ask for your card, it's an exit strategy for them, so sometimes, yeah, it's usually an exit strategy. So you want to make relationships, and the best way to make relationships in any opening setting is to not promote your art, not don't just start talking about your art, talk about their favorite subject, them. I learned this from Jack White, he was a great marketer, he used to write for fine art views too, and it really works. It's so easy to talk to other people. Where are you from? You know. Oh, yeah, yeah. I've been there, always in that beautiful, you know, great. What brings you here? Second home, you know? Just be interested in that. Then you'll get some people who want to just talk forever. So, what you do is you invite them to go look at the artwork, and then you just leave them alone. If they're interested in something, you will find that, and I'm just talking in a non-gallery shows setting, if they're interested in something. Me, you will see them staring at it for a while. If they leave and say, well, we're, we'll come back, they never come back, they never come back. But when you see them staring at something, you don't try. I don't try to sell them, I try to give them confidence in my, in their decision to like my artwork, because I'm not forcing them to like something about it, but maybe I'll say, well, you know, what is it? Why, why are you looking at this? Is it, does it remind you of something? Do you collect that thing? I've, you know, I've gotten yes from different answers, and you find out, well, what is it about this painting that they like, and, and you just really concentrate on that one painting, and you tell them a little bit, don't tell them, oh, this painting had great meaning for me, and I, I have had artist friends do that, and the people walk away because your meaning for them isn't their meaning for them, and they actually don't want you to ruin it for them, so it's all about them, so you want to always make it about them, they connected somehow to your artwork, and sometimes you know you do shows one year and people connect, and the next year same show nobody connects, or it happens, it's it happens, it's you never know what will happen, but you have to be prepared to to communicate and engage with people who seem to like your work, I remember doing outdoor shows where, where I'd be, you know, people come in. I don't force people to come in my booth. I've seen people who do that, and they'll be polite, but they can't wait to get back out. They don't want any pressure sales pressure at all? You sell things by making a relationship, so they come in to looking at around. I said, I don't. I'm not trying to talk you into buying things, but I'm always interested to see it every show I do. What is grabbing people's attention, and I said, if I were to say, "Okay, I'm going to give you one a painting in my booth today, which one would you choose? And I'm not going to tell you what everybody else chose, but this is just information for me to see what's connecting, and they will engage them. It makes a memory for them, and if they come back next year, they'll probably stop by my booth. And when I'm first started out, I needed to do a lot of that, because nobody was interested in buying mine, because they, they were buying Monique's or Harriet's, or, you know, they came all prepared to this year. I want a Monique, you know, or, or whatever. They didn't know me or see me, and there there was a little competition within the shows, so I'd bring my painting a lot of times I, I won second or third place in a category, and of course I could display that ribbon early on, and I almost always sold that painting. Social proof, social proof is really important. So that's the outdoor show circuit, it can be a lot of fun. It takes some time to build up a clientele. Everything takes some time. The internet, you know, we watch these.. we watch people like Mark Magior. He was broke for so long, we forget that Bill Anton, who's. who's a great Western painter at Legacy Gallery and other galleries, that he didn't have a lot of money when he first started out. His wife had to have a job, you know. This is the reality of it. So, don't be in a hurry and create that body work. So, let me talk about what a body of work is. Everything, all your success boils down to the quality and saleability of your artwork. It must compete with whatever venue you sell it with it. Has to, you know, I used to think I could walk into a gallery in Scottsdale with one painting. Hi, I'm an artist, right? I was so naive, but it has to be priced to fit. Into that venue, but a body of work is finished. It can be any style, it can be different subject matter, but I'd say have at least 10 of your best works, have them framed and ready to hang in a, in a frame that you've chosen that you know that works for your work across the board, and you know you want, you want it to look like you know what you're doing, and yes, you need a website, even if people, people think, I've got a website, I'm going to sell all my art for women. No, it just makes you look like a professional. People know that you're in it for real, that you're serious about it. And I have sold work from my website to people who have searched because I painted landscapes of places, they, I mean, I've sold several of people searched for that place of paintings of that place, and came to my website, and I shipped it. They weren't scams, we had long conversations on the phone, and, and, and they could buy from my website, either using most of them, you know, they wanted to use credit cards, some use paypal, some sent me a check, and I, you know, it took a little bit longer, and I had to, I had to ship it to them, and and that worked out quite well, and remind me to talk about how I used to use my website to sell as I was artist in residence at a BMB luxury BMB when I visited Tucson in February, which was it's the top visiting month in Tucson. So I had a credit card reader, you know, Square, Square up, but I tended not to use it because I didn't want to carry all that. It kind of ruins the mood, you know, when you're, when you're eating breakfast with the BNB guests, and you know, and your work's all sitting over there, and you don't, you know, it's, it's sort of an extra bonus. I gave the owners the B and B, they were friends of mine, and I gave them a 20% on all the sales, so they kept what I didn't sell, and they sold some even after I left. But here's the key, and I'll just put this in here, because I'm meandering anyway. But I, what I did was, I pull up my website, and I pull up the painting that that they wanted it, and if I didn't have the painting on there, I could take a picture of it right there and post it. They could choose it, they could enter their credit card information right there, and oh, and please sign up for my email newsletter. And almost everybody who bought from my from me at the BMB went home, they were small paintings. I painted some of them while I was there. They went home and they bought again from my email newsletter. So back in the day, I don't know how this works now, but people who bought your paintings in the past were six times more likely to buy again from you, so okay, now we were talking about how is, how about today? My premise was for artists who are just starting out, nothing is different, and nothing is different, because people who are interested in buying art want real print magazines now. They don't want to be going online all the time, they don't want to look at your Instagram account, and everybody else is, you know that just really interrupts their minds when they can scroll, and they get, and our minds get so confused. So, the way that things are the same is that you do the body of work, you go to the studio, do something you love, don't get stuck in a rut that you're going to hate being stuck in, because you will get known for something, whether it's it's locally, regionally, or nationally, and people. Collectors, even on the high level, will say, well, I've got enough of that. If they're not buying for an investment, they'll say, well, I have three of this artists already. They like variety now. There, I don't see any patrons who were not investors who aren't mixing it up, so you, you, you create the body of work, and I wanted to do this this year because I wanted to. I've learned a lot, and I want to. I moved to Arizona in 2020 I lived here when I was young, but I moved back from New England, and so you, if you want to sell in Arizona, you got to paint the West. People want what's ever outside their window. If they're on vacation and they're at a tourist place, they might, they might want a seascape, they still life sells everywhere. Kathy Anderson, friend of mine, she sells almost all her still lifes at Legacy Gallery in Scottsdale. Daniel Keys sells his still lifes at Legacy Gallery in Scottsdale. So, if you're good enough, and people just, you know, they love your work, and it can go anywhere in the country, but in New England, you, I painted Acadia National Park and Maine, because all the resort tourist towns were either in Cape Cod or they were in Maine, New Hampshire rights really didn't buy much art, so, so I'm creating a body of work, and I need to cut out the false desire and need of posting continuously online, because my body of work is not ready yet, and we feel as artists that we're so compelled, like, well, everybody's saying you're supposed to do reels, and you know you'll get more engagement, blah blah blah blah. Do you know what? I'd get more engagement if I was already famous, but I'm not going to get, I have about 3000 followers on Instagram, and I, a number of years ago, I sought out to create relationships with Instagram users that were not artists who were lived in beautiful homes on the main coast, or their photographers, or they do other things, and I find them. We used to be able to find them with hashtags, so I'd find them, I'd go to their page, and I'd like, and I'd comment on their stuff, and I'd comment a lot, and all they needed to do was just click on my name and go to my page. Well, I have doctors, and there's an eye surgeon who's a photographer who said I could use any of his stuff. He follows me, so I'm getting likes from a very small crowd from people who are not artists, and they tend to like everything that I post, because I don't post very often, you know, that's a waste of my time, and not only that, but then I feel like I must go on and like everybody else's stuff and give them out of boys and out of girls and everything. Well, before I know it, I'm just totally worn out, and I haven't spent any time in studio, and and I'm getting tired of complimenting other artists' artwork, and I don't know about you, Laura, but I got to say that this has been going on for a number of years. Previously, with Facebook, is that I come away from social media feeling like a complete failure when I'm not, because I cannot help but notice people are posting, I got into this show and that show, and here's my wallet at the Briscoe, and you know, and I feel like, you know, it's big time FOMO, and and I am not going to probably, probably not going to be in their position, mostly because I, I don't want to really have that kind of pressure in my life, but I come away feeling pretty bad some days, I think. Think that social media can make an artist feel like, why bother, you know, and do you know that's false, because I can post one of my paintings on there. We have a private Facebook page in the retirement community where I live, and I don't, you can't sell stuff, but I just post what I'm working on, and stuff like that. The residents have bought my paintings, and you know, I don't, you know, they're they're usually small studies, or whatever, and they have the means to buy it. They don't ever want to have to go to a gallery, they're not collectors, but they know me and they like my work. So that private page, which is a much smaller group, is a really good place on Facebook for me to post. So anyway, I just wanted to mention that I think you, you talked about social media losing users and people not wanting to use social media. I hear of artists all the time that are saying, oh my goodness, you know, I have an Instagram account, I'm posting, and you know what, people just scroll and they stop when they see something that blows them away, you know, or they know the person, or they think, oh, wow, that that artist is really successful, I want to be like that, you know, but they're not buying a gallery owner or a manager recently said to me about an artist that posts every single day or multiple times a day, and she's very successful, but he said, "Where's the magic? He says, "Where's.. where's the the magic that the collector is looking for? You know, so I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:15

If you've been enjoying the podcast and also want to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly webinar, The Faso Show, where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories, and answer your burning questions in real time. Whether you're a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn, and spark new ideas. And whether you're stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don't miss out, ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next Faso show webinar is coming up on the 16th of July with our special guest Vladislav Yelisaev. You can find a sign-up link in the show notes. Yeah, no, and it's, it's really interesting that you also mentioned the what I like to call the content creation hamster wheel of I have to post something, I have to be present, people are going to forget that I exist, and it does kind of feel that way, and I've actually been in and out of social media, like I maybe posted two things in the past four years, because I got so tired, I was, I wrote once, like I'm on hiatus, you want to reach me, go to my website, email me through there, and I did have some people reach out, you know, like, oh, How are you doing, are you okay, and those are the people who actually matter because they are genuinely care, but yeah, I think the way that the algorithm works is just, it's, it does not lend itself to the level of observation you would get if you go to a museum, if you go to a show, like no one's, no one's gonna look at a tiny square image for 20 minutes, the way you would at a museum or at a show, because the whole purpose of the app is to not do that. It's like it's to just, okay, I see it, it fills my entire view, because it is a tiny square, and then you move on,

Lori Woodward: 1:04:21

and you move on, and you move on until you're absolutely exhausted. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:26

and then, and then that brings me to internet fatigue, which is what I'm starting to notice, that I think more people want real-life interaction, real-life everything, like even here in Stockholm, like, I feel like everyone goes outside. Obviously, it's a summer, and, like, love the sun, but there's also a level of, like, oh, there's an event happening over here, we should totally go, or, oh, there's this happening over there, or, like, there's a very

Lori Woodward: 1:04:55

dimensional world. Yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:04:57

exactly. So, I think now we're reaching the point where the. Pendulum is starting to swing the other direction, and that's why I have heard marketers say that there are less users interacting on Instagram, and a good portion of the stuff that's going on is actually just bots, or it is, you know, unfortunately, there are people out there, even on YouTube, every social media platform, who will use fake accounts to manipulate engagement, so it's

Lori Woodward: 1:05:26

a waste of time. It is. It

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:28

is because half the time you might get like a weird comment on one of your posts, or you might get a weird follow and it turns out to be a bot, so then the follow you got gets removed. So even in that sense it just, if everything feels very, what's the word in English, like fake, like it just feels like very, like plastic, like it just doesn't feel like you're you're interacting with real people either, like it's so funny to see people argue with each other online, because it's easy, right. It's easy to argue with somebody you're not looking in the eye, right? Or it's easy to like talk to someone and say things you would never actually say to anyone in real life when you're not physically there with them. You wouldn't have the bravery to do that, right?

Lori Woodward: 1:06:16

And then you walk away feeling irritable. Yes, we don't need that,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:21

no, or

Lori Woodward: 1:06:22

you read, you see somebody else having an argument, it's kind of puts you in a bad mood, and then you know that that doesn't make you want to go and do beautiful art, but you know what, I want to just cite what I'm seeing at gallery openings recently, I can go to some that are a little bit closer to home now that I live in the Tucson area, and then I want to talk about if you're open to it, about if I were just entering the market in today, and I wanted to be established in the market, where would I spend my time, and what what steps would I take, and so I, what I'm seeing at the gallery opening, I've been going to the Settlers Westminster show since the late 90s, it's been going on forever, it's in February during the Gem and Mineral show. It's usually around Valentine's Day. It's the biggest tourist time of the year. Now, years ago, they didn't sell the works from the internet. You had to actually attend, and all works are sold by draw, and if you don't know what that is, there's a little box, and you put your name in it, and they pull out the box, and, and you know, they pull the first name, so it's kind of funny, because I've been.. I wasn't in the show years ago, but some of my friends from Putney were, and they said,'Could you go over and shake my box and see if there's anything in it, you know, before they'd start pulling the names at usually at about 7o'clock in the evening. So people would come, collectors would come in to to buy from Oklahoma, they fly in from all kinds just to be there to get one of those paintings, and so especially the more famous expensive artists, if they were big collectors. So I put my name in a box a couple times, you know, to buy somebody else's work, but I, my name didn't get chosen. Now the exciting thing is that when, when there were a lot of people that wanted the same painting, and it could be expensive because it's an established artist or it's a new artist, and they would, they would get the box, and there'd be so many names, you know, stuffed in there, that they'd have to open the box and pull out a salad bowl full of papers for that one painting, and it could be, you know, back then, maybe it could be $5,000 you know, Jeremy Lipkin was in the show, and his would always get the bowl full, and so then they passed the bowl to somebody who's sitting in the audience at the gallery, and it was so crowded you could barely move. It was so exciting. There was no place to park, and they pull out this bowl, and somebody would have to pull out. They still do this. There are still salad bowls full. They pull out the name, and somebody would, you know, maybe it's $5,000$6,000 or $10,000 but. Pull out the name, and inevitably that person would scream with delight, and usually a woman, if it was a couple, the woman would scream, and everybody else would go, "Oh, because they didn't get it, so there's a sense of competition, which is great, and so in middle years when they did start taking names online, the crowds didn't come. They weren't there at the opening. In fact, I remember Scott Jones saying at Legacy Gallery when the Putney painters had the show. He says,"You know, only the artists show up to the openings these days. Everybody else just calls up on the phone, says I want that painting, first come first serve, and they, they sold before the opening night, so there were a lot of red dots already before opening night, so that was so true. It's like all the artists go to the openings. Well, now again, what I'm seeing is a difference where people, where the room is full again, and people are competing, and they love, they love competing with each other for these, these, and they tend to be newer, younger artists, but sometimes they're the older established artists, and sometimes they don't compete for my work, but I have sold two out of the three years, so I'm happy about that. But it's just an exciting to see that things are going back the way they were, and I've also had the chance to go to several openings at Medicine Man Gallery, Mark Seb Blitz Gallery, which is huge, she's got shows going on all the time, and, and so those openings are full assured there's artists that come up, but they're mostly the artists that actually show in the gallery that attend, maybe they live in Arizona, there are a lot of collectors there, and then with Thomas Blackshear, they had a talk afterwards. I even bought something I couldn't afford, the cowboys heads that were $25,000 but they all sold every single one, and they sold at the opening. There were people there who wanted to meet the artist, and I was so exciting. I was excited to buy a little drawing, a study that he did, you know, just to be part of it. And so I'm seeing a return to old times. If I could turn back Time Song by Cher, I would go back to the way that in some ways that art was sold before the internet. I'm seeing people buy print magazines, the big shows and auctions, and even artists. My friend Darcy Pete, who she comes down to Tucson for the winters, and she sells at a number of galleries around the United States, and she's part of our little group that talks business on Wednesday. She's great, and so she advertises in this in this in art Western art collector, other magazines, quarter page ad continuously, and I, she usually sells that painting, so I asked her, well, why, you know, what do you get from doing this? You know, it's expensive, she said. "Well, I don't ever expect. I'm not doing it to sell. I'm doing it to keep myself visible with collectors, and just to let them know that I'm a professional, I'm active, I'm out there, so I don't just disappear from their view, and she's advertising in the same magazines, and she puts the link in the magazine ad to the show at Settlers West, or to the show at her. She's in number galleries, she only sells through galleries, so she just always puts the link to the gallery. Now you might, artists might think, well, that's so unfair. Why would I do that? Why would you do it? Because they have collectors that you will never reach, and that's why you want to work with. If your work is good enough to get into a gallery, then you can always sell on your own, but you've had validation like never before, even if it's just a local regional gallery, you know. I can, I can cite friends and stuff that sell it at village galleries, they're like the gallery on most. Most of the crooks are gone, so you know we don't have to worry about that anymore, but the gallery owner has a different set of clientele who they are the gallery's clientele, they want to be the gallery's clientele, they don't want to be your clientele, and I'll tell you why, because I know a lot of collectors, they don't want the artist contacting them, because they're loyal to galleries to buy their art. The gallery vets the work, they're not going to sell, they trust the gallery owner that's been in business for a while, whatever, to vet the work, and they're not going to sell something that they don't think is valuable or worthy of being in their gallery, so they are loyal to galleries, and so I think artists need to know that, because they say, well, why won't they give us the name of the people? Two reasons. It's not like they're trying to be stingy, of course. Artists used to go behind the gallery's back and try to sell directly. Well, that doesn't happen very much anymore, and the reason why it doesn't happen very much anymore, is because the person who bought your artwork, for the most part, wants to remain anonymous. They do, they want to buy from a variety of artists, they don't, they're they want to have a collection, they're having the time of their lives because they have the money to collect original art, they actually compete with each other at the shows, and it's not about the artist. I realized this recently when I finally got into the Settlers West show. I asked, I said, Stuart, you know, do you think my work would sell at this show, that's all he cares about. I've known him for years and years, and years ago, no, it wouldn't have, it wouldn't have been good enough. It is good enough to sell, but not at that show. And he said, well, let's try it out and see how it goes. Now, if you don't sell anything for two or three years at that show, you're just not going to stay there. That's just the way it is, and that's the way it is at all galleries at all levels. They just cannot afford a wall space for an artist that's not selling. I got, I got kicked out of ant gallery back in the day when watercolor was hot, and when G Clay Prince came out, watercolor fell sales of water because they couldn't tell the difference, oils came into folks, so I had to go up and pick up all my watercolors at the gallery in Maine, and and then another artist, she was watercolorist, and same exact thing. Well, she was so depressed. I drove her. I took her out to lunch. We went to the other side of town of Kennebunkport. There was a gallery owner I knew over there. He had a lot of more watercolorists, so we had all our paintings in the car, and and we walked in, and I said to him, I said, "You know, she's an incredible artist, you should see her watercolors, she's just so good. And he said, "Oh, sure, said I have some in the car, would you mind if I brought a few in? And I'm so brave, I brought him in. He looked at him. He was blown away. Of course, she's good. The other gallery couldn't sell watercolors anymore. That was the problem. So he was in Dock Square, more of, you know, shops and stuff nearby restaurants. So, so we brought him in. I'm going out to get the paintings. She's still in there, and he said to her, "She's your agent, isn't she? And she said, "No, she's just a friend. Anyway, he took almost all the paintings on the spot, so you never know, you know. Don't give up if you've got good work, and you know comparison is the thief of joy. Just don't compare yourself to the top artists online, you will not give yourself enough credit. Yes, it has to be good. Yes, people have to want to buy it. Yes, it has to emotionally connect with them. Perfect, perfectly composed paintings don't sell because they're perfectly composed. The buyers don't know anything about composition. They don't care that the tree's right in the middle or the horizon. They don't care. They think it's truth and beauty. They connect with it. Don't even worry about that. Not worth it. So, so, where was it going? The galleries, you know, people are wanting to go on real vacations. They want to be in places, they want to eat out at real restaurants. They want, they people do have a lot, especially retirement crowds and stuff. They have a lot of money, they have a lot of time. What are they going to do with it all, well, maybe they want to buy, maybe they have second homes, they want to buy artwork. Now, interestingly, another thing that gallery owner said to me recently, because I'm always asking questions, is do they care, you know, for artists like me who aren't the superstars, I'm not going to be investment or resold on the market. It's just true. And I asked, well, so for artists like me who do not have a national reputation right now, but I can, I can't sell at the gallery shows, do they care about signature memberships? Do they care about hidden? Said no, no way. They don't care. They don't even look at who painted the painting. They just buy what they like. And I said, oh, well, that changes everything for me. That gives me a lot of freedom. That means that I can paint a portrait of a cowboy. I love to paint portraits. That means that I can paint landscape, I can paint, I can give a variety of artwork, because it's about them, it's not about me at my level, it's about them creating a conversation piece, a beautiful thing for their home or homes, usually they own more than one, so that just gives me the freedom to paint whatever I want, and I'm seeing even, you know, nationally known career artists who paint, you know, in the West, they might paint, you know, Native Americans, they might paint floral still lifes, they might paint landscapes. Kyle Ma just had a sellout show at Legacy Gallery, he had a number of floral still lifes, he's a little bit more famous for his landscapes. He sold them all. Now he's got a name, he's got that halo around his head, you know. People know his name, but I'm seeing other artists who are, you know, new, pretty new to the scene, who are painting different subject matter, and it's not even an established style, but they're painting different subject matter, and they're, they're very well painted, they're representational, of course, they're not photo realism by any means, but they're selling both in the same show, and then after people buy the artist, then they might want to know more about the artist, but they originally bought the painting just because they liked it, so I think a lot of what artists think actually happens in the art world doesn't, it's just it's what you've heard in the long past, it's but I know from experience and watching people that there's a lot of freedom out there on every level, so you know, artists who sell it, local gift shops and stuff, they get a whole wall. The owners just thrilled to have them. They sell everything, and everyone loves them. Who could ask for more than that? Right.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:01

Yeah, yeah,

Lori Woodward: 1:24:01

so do you have any other questions? How are we doing on time?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:07

I think we're getting close to the end, but I mean, I feel like there's always so much beyond even just like what we've got left to discuss, that like,

Lori Woodward: 1:24:20

oh, pricing,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:22

yeah, that's actually the next thing I really wanted to cover, because I think that's like one of the top questions every single artist out there will ever ask, especially when we're starting out, is how the heck do you come up like a really good pricing strategy that you know if you're going to purchase a gallery or if you're going to go and sell, you know, at a show, or you know, an outdoor show of some sort, like what would you recommend?

Lori Woodward: 1:24:49

Okay, so pricing is a really big area, and I wrote a blog years and years ago for American artists, they're online, it was their number one buy. Um, hit blog for a decade, so artists, it's very confusing, but your price matters more about where the arts being sold than anything. You can't arbitrarily price, you can't arbitrarily put a high price on work unless you've got proven sales at that price, so it's better to start out low. In fact, gallery owner said keep, keep it on the low side, because you know the economy could, could dictate that people, people aren't going to buy a painting because it's more expensive unless they're investing, so you want to keep it reasonable, but you want to always make a profit. There's no sense in giving your art away. There's no sense in selling art. If it doesn't sell, then you just gotta get better. You know that, that's your, that's your cue, that's your wake-up call. But once you do start selling, you, if you're just starting out, and I did this, and I recommend it to other artists, maybe they're doing a show at a, oh, I don't know, country club or outdoor show, or whatever, something where they don't have to invest a lot of money that you take every single cost that it costs you to make that that work of art, the frame, the materials, part of the show fees, whatever you know, it can split that up, you want to calculate every single cost that it costs you, and then you want to double that to get your retail price, and that way you make a profit. And if somebody wants a little bit, 10% of a discount, I never give a discount unless to buy more than one painting, because it just doesn't happen that way, but but but, yeah, so you double the cost, you get a retail price, and you know, when you're just starting out, you need quality materials, because it's just paintings just look better on linen than they look on canvas, you know, it's easier to paint on quality materials, you want things to be archival, but you know, so maybe, maybe my costs, or you know, 300 bucks, because I'm not, you know, starting out, I'm not at the the point where my paint, my frames cost 300 bucks, you know, so if so, I'd say, well, my costs are this now. If I work through somebody who takes a commission, then I'm going to add that commission, and it's important when you work with a gallery that you double the cost of all your your supplies, including your frame, because let's say I spent $150 on the frame, it's not unheard of, even if it's a little one, if I say before we even talking about, you know, the gallery commission, I want to get all that money back for that frame, so I'm going to double that, because most galleries are going to take 50 or 40% so I double the cost of the frame, so we're, we're talking 304 $100 of my supplies, we're not even talking about my time or expertise, but I'm going to at least get back everything that I've, that's cost me. I'm only just getting paid for getting better when I'm first starting out. No, but I want to make profit. I do not want to come home with in the hole knowing I lost money, I never sell to somebody who can't afford to buy original art, and yeah, you know the reason why is that you don't go around feeling sorry for people like, oh, well, I want to be able to give art to people that you know, if you've got family members, just give them a painting, don't sell it to them, and and then Monique used to say, I'm not in the charity business, I'm in business, and as, as an artist, a professional artist who wants to make a career out of it, you are a small business, and you have to run it like a business, and it needs to be profitable at every step of the stage. Keep your expenses as low as you can. Don't try to do shows that it cost you too much. Don't, don't pay for ads. I did that early on. I took my best painting, put it on newspaper that was in Scottsdale. Well, I ended up on the same page next to Kevin McPherson. How's that going to go over, right? Yeah, they made money for me, but I didn't make anything, so you know, make sure that your work is vetted. It takes a while. Be patient with yourself. Spend, spend as much time as you can in the studio. Here's another thing that I would do, that I'm doing, is I chunk my weak parts. The stuff I really have trouble with, it's holding me back from being productive, it's a, it's a term that Brian Mark Taylor came up with a number of years ago, says take the thing that you're weakest with and just do little studies of that part until it's your strength, take the time to do that, and you will have a lot more fun, and you will get work done a lot faster, so with the pricing, once you sold a work at a certain price, like I just sold my, my eight by 10 at the miniature show, it's on the low side for $950 I sold my nine by 12 for $980 yeah, my frames were very expensive. I made an investment myself, but I still came home with money in my pocket, right? If I start selling, I cannot sell. I do not sell at where I live in the auditorium. People say, why don't you sell there? I said, because it doesn't respect the people who already spent that much money on my artwork, so I can't undercut, and why would I want to if I can get somebody to buy my work for $950 Why would I want to sell it for any less? So don't, don't backtrack once you start selling it, shows that is your retail price, and if you sell most of your work at that retail price, or it all sells too quick, don't don't take a huge leap in price just because somebody else who's really famous is cost so much more. Test the market, raise it by 10% for the next year, or whatever, if you're really selling out, you can, I mean, if, if your work's so cheap, everybody's buying it all the time, raise it by 20% The people who already buy your work will be thrilled, because they're like, wow, I got a bargain, you know, and this person's going places, but for the time being, for me, I'm not going to raise my prices. I asked, should I raise my prices this year, and the answer was probably no. There's a lot of artists that come in, they sell, and they, and they raise their prices too high, too fast, and they just price themselves right out of the market, so, so that's that's my advice on pricing to get started, go from there, and it's a slow growth process, just just know that we're looking at people online, we don't see what they did, how they were 10 years ago, you know, but for most of us, there are superstars like Rachel Brownlee, who did the Mountain Oyster Club show three years ago, got an award, sold her painting, her work is spectacular and unique, and must take her hours and hours to get it done, and so she went right to the top, and just a few years later she's in Legacy Gallery, she's in Prix de West, but if you look at her work, how many of us could even begin to produce the kind of work that she does, you know, and so there's a reason why that happened to her, and it's because of the quality and just the epicness of her artwork, she was doing that for years, and a friend of hers said, "You know what? You should see, you should enter the show and see if you can get in, and that's what started all. But her work was ready. I know artists that they don't feel ready, but I mean, I've had, you know, studio mates, I don't feel ready. I don't feel ready for a gallery. I don't feel I need to sell my work daily paintings for 20 bucks. I'm going to be nuts. You're really good, you're really consistent. And I said, you know what, you're not ready, but your work is ready. You could be paid. Playing a much bigger game, and she didn't. She just had a solo show last year at a major gallery in Maine, so there you go.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:35:08

Yeah, yeah, I think didn't

Lori Woodward: 1:35:11

get there right away, but she got there.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:35:13

Yeah, I mean, there was still all the time that she put into developing her work, right, which actually you mentioned earlier about voice, which I kind of now really want to circle back to that really quick, but yeah, it's one of those things where, like, some people, they're a little too overconfident, and they jump too early, and then there are people who are not confident enough, and they use every other thing as an excuse to not do it, which is perfectly normal. It can be, I think, one of the things probably is also like the higher expectations and commitment that you have to have when you're working with a gallery, specifically with a gallery, because their timelines are so, so strict, right? If you have to have work for a specific show or another show, like, you really like you said, you have to be prolific, or you have to have some sort of really strict studio time, and I think, for, oh, yeah, that's so

Lori Woodward: 1:36:11

important,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:36:11

yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a huge commitment,

Lori Woodward: 1:36:15

yeah, huge. I once had a gallery, I used to help get other artists into galleries who were already established locally, and gallery owner in Scottsdale said to me, don't bring me anybody who isn't painting at least 75 works a year minimum, because that's what it's going to take for them to work with galleries and I think that's pretty much true, because you look at most of the artists, you know, who are career full-time artists making a living, and they, yeah, they teach and stuff too, but they aren't, you know, maybe they're in four galleries, they've got to keep those walls full, so they, you know, you're making not only you're making a huge commitment to the quality of your artwork, but to the production of it. And if you don't think that you're cut out to do that, like me, you can still sell your work. I still sell my work. I want to do small work shows invitation. I don't want to be represented by a gallery, because I think that pressure would throw me over the top. Just being in the small work shows with nationally known artists has been a little bit intimidating for me for the first time in my life, but I just know I'm not going to meet that need. I'm not going to be in the studio all the time. I'm not ready to make that commitment, but that's okay. It just means I'm going to sell my work on a smaller scale, and I'm happy with that. So, okay, so we cover pricing,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:01

yes, and I wanted to circle back really quick about voice, because I mean,

Unknown: 1:38:06

yes, of course,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:07

I do want to, like, after that, I do want to do, like, a little bit for our listeners, kind of like a checklist type of, like, bing bang boom, if you're starting out as an artist, like, this is what you got to do, so we can make a little bit of like a summary, yeah, because it's just it's a lot, but yeah, so voice, I think that's another huge, huge, huge thing that a lot of artists, thank

Lori Woodward: 1:38:31

you for bringing

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:32

about, yeah, because it's like, oh, how do I develop my voice, or what is, what is even a voice, or like, what's is that different from style, and, like, you know, bada bing, bada boom. Do you mind telling us a bit more? I

Lori Woodward: 1:38:45

can give you examples.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:38:47

Perfect.

Lori Woodward: 1:38:47

So, so you had the paint in us. Don't try to paint like somebody else just because they're successful, and the only way that you're going to get to find your voice is to paint all the time, do a bunch of studies, find out what works. I mean, I'm, I've been painting for 50 years, and I'll try something out, and I'll go, well, that was cool. I'm going to try that again, and I want to use my friend Karen Bruces as a, an example. She was the person who did the daily paintings for a long time. She's very prolific. She did graphic arts before she got into fine art. She's all she and her husband have always had their own businesses, so they're really, really excellent at running business, but her, she's got a very bright contemporary palette, and she paints, she paints for still life. Paints people, she used to paint mug shots. She, she painted room interiors that were just.. I mean, I bought some, and now she's in a main gallery in Kennebunkport that she got into as a recommendation by a friend who was in that gallery, who saw her work and had the owner come out and and visit her studio, that the best way to get into a gallery is to have another artist who's in there recommend it. Her style is so recognizable, and it is it. I've seen the style. She went from the Daily Painter style, no, Sarah Sedgwick, and, and others, but she developed her own color palette, and it's very bright, sort of transparent oils, and you cannot walk by one of her paintings and not notice it. It's just, they are just delightful and fun, and they just give you a good feeling, and she's, she sells everything, no matter what, what the subject is, of course. When she's, you know, painting for the gallery along the coast, it's a seasonal- all those are seasonal galleries. She's going to paint. She paints people on the beach, you know, carrying lawn chairs and umbrellas and stuff, or kids and inner tubes in the in the waves, and you just know it's her painting, or lobster boats, or you know, whatever, she developed that style. I watched her develop that style, and she didn't. She painted continuously fast. She didn't spend a lot of time worrying about whether it's coming out, you know. She didn't think painting was good. She says, "I'll just put it in the antique shop, we'll just sell it over there, you know, and and she's just paints, paints, paints, paints. She doesn't have a lot of time, so I think she only spends two or three hours a day painting, but she is, she's become sort of a formula painter, and and I find that people who paint formulas can paint different subjects, but you find your style really fast by just painting and experimenting and being willing to throw stuff out. Oh my gosh, you know, some of my mentors say they cut up their paintings and throw them away, and those are paintings that would be my very best if I could do them, but that's how you find your voice. You find your voice by enjoying, risking just painting every day without putting a lot of pressure on yourself. You know, it's just paint. Richard Schmidt used to say that to me, Laurie, it's just paint. You know, you can scrape it off, you don't care, it's, it's, it's not who you are, your reputation, just paint, just do it, and that's how not only do you, you improve by repetition, by failing, by experimentation, and you know if you're doing that all the time, you're going to end up with a pretty good body of work, which you can select from, and then maybe you get a little bit selective about, you know, which ones you take to a show, or you, Karen, and I, Karen Bruce, and a number of others of us, you know, back in 2012 I joined their shared studio. It was in a mill building that was run down, but it had a lot of artisans in there, so every they had classes, they had shops, and perfect. We turned the front area, had beautiful windows, lights, French doors into our gallery, and we sold a lot of artwork. We all worked in the back, but we had lights on. We just turned. We just owned that gallery, and we had such freedom. Collaboration between artists is a beautiful thing, especially if you get a group of artists where you're all just really pretty easy going. Works great. great, but Karen developed style. My friend Monique Sakalarius, she had - she had a formula, so her pain - she painted all her underpants with red, she painted French impressionistically. She had formal training, but she just, everybody recognized her work, and she painted about 200 paintings a year, so, and she sold most of them.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:44:49

Amazing.

Lori Woodward: 1:44:50

Yeah, so, and then another guy, Dennis Sheehan, he's he's gearing down now that he's older, he's teaching a lot. But he did paint about 400 paintings a year, and he, he, he followed a formula, so he made a lot of money, he had a family to support, you know, there's he, he did, he did his work was very, very well collected, so just go for it. Play around, find out what you like, experiment. Don't spend too much on supplies, and say,"Well, if I only try pastel, maybe no. Don't just stick to one, get very good with it, understand it. Expect to make a lot of failed paintings. Okay, but you're going to fail your way up to success,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:45:46

absolutely. And then to kind of close off the conversation before we hear about where people can reach out to you, do you mind giving us just like a recap, right? If someone is starting out today and they decide, okay, I'm going to do this full time, what's like top things for them to really set their sights on?

Lori Woodward: 1:46:15

Well, make create a vision, a vision that is specific, that's reachable in the short term, that you believe that you can actually do it. Don't you know, dreams don't go very far. What, what happens is the next step goes far. So create a vision that you can reach within the next year or two, expect there to be stuff that doesn't work out, but it, if you don't try, you won't get there. I study with mentors, and in the area, I study with people who, whose work I don't want to emulate them, because I'm not a copycat kind of person, but they can teach principles that I think will help me, and I have more than one mentor, and I don't tell them about the other mentors, because they actually get jealous, but so study, improve, make sure that go to go to regional galleries, or you know, tourist areas. Do not walk in like you're a collector. Do not walk up to every painting and look how it's done, and comment and look at the price, because collectors never do that. They walk in, they don't look at the price, they don't look up close, they don't care about how it's painting, they just look around, they find something that catches their eye, they walk up to it, but they don't get real close, because they're picturing it on the wall, and they only look at the price if they're thinking about actually buying it, and then they turn around and they look for a staff member, and they want to know more. Okay, so Scott Jones got on my case about that, but he didn't understand that that you want to see how they treat people who aren't artists, and so you don't want to act like an artist, because they'll ignore you a lot of times. No, it happens. So, go in, visit galleries, find a gallery that isn't the most expensive, doesn't have the, you know, super major, you know, well-known artists. There's lots of galleries on Cape, you know, in tourist areas in Arizona villages. They've been in business for a long time. See what the prices are with the artists, you know. Walk up to the gallery owner, see if they're attentive to you, because a lot of times if they're not attentive, maybe you don't want to be in there to ask them, "Oh, tell me about this artist, you know, whatever. Just pretend, find out about the industry, find out, go to Instagram, just to see artists that, who you like. If you look through a magazine, an art magazine, and you just flip through, flip through, and you stop and you dog ear any page that you go ooh and you don't have to analyze it, justify it, you said ooh and dog ear it, and then you go back and you see what they have in common, and that's the way that your mo. Is likely to want to paint, it's true. At least for now, you'll change in the future, but it's a starting place. Then you can look up some of those artists online, you can find them, you know, Instagram, social media, whatever, and you're not trying to be like them, because they've been working at this for many years, but it just gives you a direction to move into, to say that's what I like, that's my taste, and so I'm going to develop that taste the best I can, see if I can, you know, find some online demos and stuff like that. Don't even worry about marketing right away until you have that body of work, because you don't want them saying you're not ready yet. You want them to say, I'd like to invite you into my gallery, and I've had that happen, so you know that's you want to be, you want to be totally ready to make your debut. Don't feel rushed, don't feel pressured, like, oh, you're supposed to do this and that, the other thing. Don't feel any pressure, you go at your own pace, because slower is faster.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:51:19

Beautiful. I love that, that is very true, very very true. Yeah, and then do you have any upcoming shows or exhibitions or anything that you would like to promote?

Lori Woodward: 1:51:36

I do the Settlers West miniature show, but what the direction I'm heading is to do more writing again, and I do want to do more marketing research. I'm actively researching what's working for artists on different levels, artists I've known through the years. I just get in contact with them, and I'm going to blog about that. I have a sub stack. Oh no, it's sort of like, oh, you need more engagement. I think, shut up, I don't want that. I have about 1500 subscribers to my email newsletter on my website, and most of those are there because I used to write blogs, and so I want to start blogging again. This is the time in my life when I want to contribute and help artists, and so that's going to be my main thing. I will also post my paintings step by step, and my approach with that has always been even when I've done demos for groups and I say, oh, I made it, that was a big goof, I made a mistake. My approach is, I made a mistake, this looks terrible. How do I fix it? You know, because none of us paints perfectly all the time, right. So that's where I'm going. They should go to my website. They can go to my Instagram if they want. That's where I post a lot of what I'm currently working on, but I do want to really beef up my blog. I would say that 90% of the visitors that get to my website are coming there for blogs I wrote a long time ago, so that's who my audience is. It is also a way for me to sell paintings to people who want them, so that's it. I'm playing a small game now. I've done plenty in my younger years,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:53:42

but that's wonderful, and I think I'm also going to be including all your links. Okay, show notes, but do you mind telling us what your website is?

Lori Woodward: 1:53:51

It's Laurie L O R I Woodward W O O D W A R d.com just my name.com and my, my, my user number is 5700 It starts. I got that website so long ago.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:54:11

Yeah, you've got the, the short numbers. Yeah, that's how you know you've been around for a while, which is amazing. Yeah, but yeah, I think I'm definitely signing up for your newsletter, because I think there's, you know, you've definitely experienced a lot of the art world, the way that it functions, what works, what doesn't work, and the fact that you've experienced it too, like you've witnessed artists who experience these types of, like, some of them have had windfalls, some of them have not, some of them have made it work somehow, and that's, you know, one of the beauties of the art market is precisely that it functions depending on how you function, right? If you don't like teaching, okay, focus on tackling, if you like teaching, teach. And you can sell on the side, or oh, I just want to do galleries, and I don't want to talk to anyone. I'm sure you have to be a really, really good painter with a really good connection, but yeah, it's like you hit the nail

Lori Woodward: 1:55:12

on the head, because, because people want a protocol, and there is no protocol, because we're all individuals, we have to know who we are and who we are determines on what is realistic for

Laura Arango Baier: 1:55:27

us. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, like kind of like how you said, you know, some some people that they just need to have that prolific quality, that ability to paint fast, and and some people I've actually, you know, like Audner Drum, he makes like six paintings a year, and they're all massive, of course. His price range is different, yeah,

Lori Woodward: 1:55:50

right.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:55:50

Rice range is different, and of course, he's been around for many, many, many years. So he does have, you know, his collectors from before, but no, he doesn't really work with galleries.

Lori Woodward: 1:56:03

Yeah, and there is that, there is that option. If I were starting out, I would even get.. I worked with frame shop galleries and local galleries and stuff, and I would start.. I would try to at least get into that, because when people go to your website, who went, I started selling on my own, I left galleries because I wasn't prolific enough, and I started selling on my own at different venues, even in a high-end antique shop, I rented a booth, I sold everything there, and and I kept in, you know, the people weren't.. I wasn't there when they bought it, but I sold pretty well, and I sold on my own for most of my career. I did portrait commissions, whatever, whatever, and you know, you, you, you got to go with your flow, and you end up building an audience over time, but you do once you start building an audience, get them to sign up for your email newsletter, because they will, especially if they bought something from you, then they're invested, right, so they will sign up, and they will buy again from you, and you can, you know, use that, and you can see who opens it, and you know, stuff like that. I lose, I lose subscribers every time I put an email newsletter out. That's normal. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:57:35

but yeah. Well, thank you so much, Lori. This was an eye-opening conversation, very encouraging, also, which I really love. I feel like so many, so many times it's easy to be so bleak about selling as an artist, and I see it's not. I see

Lori Woodward: 1:57:53

a lot of good things happening, and I, I'm, will be doing research with artists, and explaining to you that they're doing very well, the people who aren't doing very well, probably it's their art is not really ready yet.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:58:12

Yeah, and that's one of the hard truths, I guess. It is, it is. Yeah, just develop your work, have a day job if it's really, really necessary, or have a way to, like, not worry about your economy while you develop that work. Yeah, you

Lori Woodward: 1:58:27

can teach long before you're.. I taught long before my work was ever gallery ready.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:58:37

Well, there you go. Oh man. Well, thank you so much again, Lori, for being with us. Thank

Lori Woodward: 1:58:43

you for having me.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:58:45

Of course, I'm so happy. Thank you to everyone out there for listening to the podcast. Your continued support means a lot to us. If you've enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or leave us a comment on YouTube. This helps us reach others who might also benefit from the excellent advice that our guests provide. Thank.