Steve Atkinson: 0:00

You need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they're going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that they're collecting.

Johanna Spinks: 0:17

You know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime.

Scott Ruthven: 0:23

Nurture your community, your collectors don't always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give?

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

Welcome to the Faso podcast, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. In this compilation episode, we are focusing on tips about one of the most important parts of an artistic career, collectors, our past guests emphasize that fine art is sustained by strong, long term relationships with collectors, not just technical skill or gallery placement. They describe collectors as people who often want a personal connection and ongoing dialog through conversations at shows, home, salon events and gallery openings, many of our guests highlight using newsletters, social media and even texting to stay in touch, share new work and make collectors feel appreciated and involved. Several artists stress the importance of gratitude and reciprocity from handwritten thank you notes to remembering birthdays and asking how collectors discovered their work. Overall, collectors are not only buyers, but possible friends, supporters and connectors, whose loyalty and enthusiasm can sustain an artist's career over many years.

Steve Atkinson: 1:52

The other thing that illustration gave me and being an illustrator, is understanding people are going to roast me for this, understanding that art is a business, and so if you want to make a living at art, you need to not just be excellent at your technique, especially if you're you know, representational artists, you also need to be able to understand that there are deadlines, especially if You're in galleries or in shows. You need to be able to get things done on time. You need to make a profit, make a little bit of a profit, otherwise, you know, you're going to end up like so many artists that just can't make a living at it, and understanding, Oh, the other big thing, the big difference between illustration and fine art, is that with fine art, it really is centered on it's a relationship based way of living with illustration. You have, you know, your commercial clients come to you with with fine art, you need to have collectors in your life who value your work, and in order to do that, yeah, you know they're going to follow you because they like your work, but so many collectors really like to know the artists that They're collecting. They and this is true in all business. People do business with people that they like, and so having that email list is so important, having social media is important. Advertising can be important, but picking up the phone and calling people who have bought your work and staying in touch with them so important, and something that I'm trying to get better at, because I'm a big introvert, but luckily, I have learned that one on one, I'm I'm really good, but Talking to big crowds of people, or going to shows where there's a big crowd, that's a little more daunting for me.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:06

That's That's understandable. I completely relate to that. It is definitely a lot easier to, you know, have your focus on one person. I also get very overwhelmed in large groups. But, yeah, those are excellent, excellent, excellent points. And I think you know, especially, you know, if you have a career in illustration, right, or, like when you did, you get used to all that. Maybe not the one on one collector side, but you definitely get used to deadlines speed and okay, you got to get this done exactly the way that the client wants it. Because, of course, the client is the one who tells you exactly tells you exactly what they want. Versus, you know, in fine art, you can come up with almost anything and and then the collectors have to come to you, you know, but you have to put yourself out there. So it's a little bit of a back and forth, different, yeah,

Steve Atkinson: 4:57

yeah, yeah, most definitely. And I. I think so often we don't understand that it really is a relationship driven kind of kind of a calling. I didn't realize that when I first started, and I'll tell this little story, I was at a show, and a lot of times you'll see when artists are at the show, the artists will glom together. You'll you'll see somebody that you know, who's an artist, and you'll go over and talk to them. And there's all these collectors that are, that are there, or people that you don't know yet, and you can spend your whole time just talking to an artist or a bunch of artists that you know. And I had, one time I had someone come up and insert themselves into a conversation that I was having with another artist, and they didn't know who I was, and when they found that, they said, Oh, are you in the show? And I said, Yeah, absolutely. And they said, well, where's your art? And it was a show that had many different rooms of art. And I said, Oh, it's over in this room, over here. And went on to talking to the person that I was talking with. My wife comes up afterwards, and she said, Honey, you may want, if someone comes up and asks where your art is, you may want to take them over and show them. So I never made that mistake again. But it's just one of those things that's not innate, unless you realize that you're building relationships. And it's nice to talk to the people that you know, but it's much better to go up and talk to someone, maybe, who's looking at your art or someone else, and find out what their tastes are in art and start that conversation where they're from. Do they have any artwork? Is it prints? Is it originals? What do they look for in a painting? I just find that if you start talking to people about what their likes are, the conversation is so easy. I mean it, people love talking about themselves, and so you just go down that road, ask them a question, and you can just nod for 10 minutes, you know. Or a lot of times, you'll find you have a lot in common. I have made such good friends doing that, and to this day, not just people who buy my art, but people who you just generally like you genuinely like. So it's, it's a great experience, if you look at it as this person has something to offer me. I don't know them, but I know we have things in common. We just have to figure out what they are, yeah, so that's it. I'm off my soapbox.

Johanna Spinks: 7:35

Dave touched me too. It's a two way street, you know, and the conversations that we had, and by the way, in the face of Ventura, we I linked in with a newspaper, and all those sitters went on to a radio show too, so after the sketch had been painted. So it really was about, you know, telling their story. And I think that's what made it powerful, actually. And I will say, if you're going to do these kind of things again, if you're interested in putting your artwork out there in terms of marketing, and we have to talk about marketing that, you know, be kind of thinking, Well, you know, what is the end game of this as well? You know, because going off and painting 130 portraits of people is a big time commitment, as you know, doing a show like this, those things are a time commitment. You've got to arrange it. You've got to do this, that and the other and it was a significant part of my yearly thing, doing that. So I was very aware right from the beginning that they were never going to be for sale, that they were, I think I sold one of them, and then said I did sell one of them, and it was a very bad idea. Changed my mind and asked if I could have it back and give her a painting instead, which, which she lovely, lovely. So agreed to, because this the Boone Special Collections archives had asked if they could take the Malibu and rebuild series into their collection. And she was one, one of the paintings that was missing I needed, I needed to have her included. So in terms of marketing and building your brand, you decide where you're you know what you're aiming for. I mean, I really wanted those portraits to be archivally stored somewhere. And I just started with that intention from the very beginning. And it took a lot of effort and a lot of very good people in the towns to help me achieve that. And that goes back to the one on one contact with people you know, the people that that are your connectors. You know, just, you know, nurture those the connectors. You know that somebody said, somebody famous, and I hope I'm not misquoting, but you know, if you have 100 sincere collectors that will last you a lifetime, and I say if you have 50 serious connectors, you know people who like you, like your art, and. Stay with you over the years that will take you so far. You know, the connectors are as gold as the connectors collectors are. Connectors are as gold as collectors. So, yeah, I would say, always have in mind, you know, that the mountain you're trying to reach in terms of, you know, well, could this go somewhere? So with the 365 days of drawing, you know, there was a show, there was a book, self published book, there was a article in American artist magazine that was so never think, Oh, I've done this. That's it. Like, think, well, what can I do with it afterwards? Because a lot of the stuff for me happened after the individual Town projects were finished, the paintings were in storage. And then then I said, Well, now I start the what do we do with this?

Karen Blackwood: 10:51

Surely have one collector that is one of my best collectors, who found me online when I lived in Michigan and bought a piece and continues to buy my work out here now, and I've had her to my home, and I usually will have a once a year salon show at home where I invite only my collectors or future collectors, kind of like a way to just show them what I'm working on, so they become, you know, friends, and I value them. And then through my galleries, I would say, you know, they maintain a really strong relationship with collectors. And anytime I'm working on a new piece, they'll make sure that collector gets to see it. And then out on social media, you know, people get to stay in touch. And the newsletter actually on the Faso website, my newsletter. I built a strong following during covid. I couldn't paint my large paintings. I thought I would kill them and I and I knew I had to paint. So I did a that I could keep working. And I knew I could sustain focus for, you know, a six by eight. So I think I painted about 80 of them, close to 80, and sold them all through my newsletter on Faso. So I would let the buyers know that, you know, next Tuesday, you know, look for my newsletter and first come, first serve. It gets sold to, you know, whoever tells me I want it. And so I built up, you know, I think I added 400 followers from that campaign, on that, on that newsletter, because they were buying the painting. So, so the newsletter is also a big thing, I would say, social media and keeping in touch through a consistent newsletter on Faso has been, yeah, fine art studio online, for those who don't know, galleries

Nanci France-Vaz: 13:17

is somebody else's business, and you know, you're taking a chance that they are going to put you in front of their collectors. Some of the problems today that I see with that, I think in the 90s or turn of the 21st Century, you know, they're they were really good before the whole social media thing. And I think since social media came out, as a business owner myself, I kind of can feel for, you know, social media artists are able to sell on their own right now, but of course, they have to find the collectors. That's very difficult to do. I've done it, and I have done, you know, in the past year, I do have those collectors that have seen my work through Instagram, and so that's why I focus on Instagram, or I read about them, and then I went to an event that they were at, and I didn't say anything to them. I just got to know them. And, you know, I became, I guess, very extroverted as I got older. I was more introverted when I was younger, and then after gymnastics, I would say, in my 30s, I started to come into my own. And then in my 40s, now I was selling. And so I found that you have to get along with people. You have to network by just becoming their friend. You have to build relationships. That's what business is all about. Build relationships, whether it's with a gallery, with a collector on Instagram. You know, some people just want people to like their work and follow them, but they never comment or like. Your work, there's a lot of people like that, so it's got to be reciprocal. You have to build relationships. Doesn't matter how many followers that person has. So I try to do that. I try to build relationships with some galleries. I felt like I wasn't ready because I wanted to find my voice. Now I am. So that's why I went with Dasha. When Lee asked me to do a solo show, I said, I'm out of inventory. I only have one painting left, and I sold most of those on my own. But I do want to be in a gallery too, because I think both can be lucrative. If I am in a gallery and I'm signed to a gallery, if I have a collector that goes to the gallery, you know, I always get the gallery 50% I don't undercut a gallery. I think that's wrong to do. Somebody asked me, you don't take 50% of your price. I go, No, absolutely not. I do exactly what my gallery would do if my gal, if it wasn't seen in my gallery, and it's my client, and I'm not represented by a gallery, I'm just a guest artist. I can sell my work on my own. There is no contract, right? So I do give them, I start with 10% and you know, I won't give more than you know, some galleries that have asked me, can you go 20% but I've had it enough so that I feel like, if I'm going to give up 50% then I'm still making money, especially if I have to ship it. So you gotta, it's very hard to do your homework. Find the right Gallery and the right galleries that really believes in you, that wants to sell you work. Well, you know what? I think everybody's trying to figure out the landscape and how to render that landscape for their business and and it's all good. I totally get it. Like social media changed everything. So they're trying to figure it out. You're trying to figure it out. I think being with the gallery, being my mother was a business owner. I'm a business owner. You know, if I had a staff, I would want them to be loyal to me, absolutely. They absolutely have the right I'm definitely Pro Gallery, but you have to pick the right one that works for you. But there are some excellent galleries out there that have artists for a long time, and they have artists for a long time, and they always give them a solo show, and they do quite well with them, and those are the ones that you want to strive to be in. That's the struggle of artists, whether they're younger or older. You could be older and breaking into the business. There's no such thing as age. Age isn't the number. You know, you can develop work and be quite good at 80 years old. You don't have to start on year five. It all depends on the time you put in. You have to look at me. I went on the hamster wheel, and I'm trying to catch up, and I think I'm there. I caught up to a certain extent. I wish I had 40 more years in this. Maybe I do, I don't know, but I think you have to try all of it and see what works the best. But I think having a lot of different venues to try out is good a friend of mine. Francine Craig is a friend of mine, and, you know, she's done AI. I don't have any problem with that, as long as they're not saying it, it's a painting. You know, they should have their own venue and be able to sell their work their artists, too. But I tend to like traditional work, and she goes into auctions. And I said, Oh, really? She said, Oh, it's a lower price point. I said, Well, maybe I could do studies that are like six by nine or eight by 10, like real, Listen Live. I put this little, small five by five inch painting in their auction because I was part of the faculty this year, and it sold, and I've had it for a few years now, you know, I'm like, Oh, why didn't I think of doing that? You know? So you never know. Try everything. If that doesn't work, try something else. Put that painting somewhere else. Maybe it'll hit that collector base right at

Laura Arango Baier: 19:15

Faso, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. Faso provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com that's BoldBrush show.com the Faso podcast is sponsored by Faso. Now, more than ever, it's crucial to have a website when you're an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link, faso.com, forward slash podcast, you can make that. Come true, and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that's basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won't get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes, so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, faso.com forward slash podcast, that's faso.com forward slash podcast,

Heather Arenas: 20:45

your relationship with your gallery is one that you nurture. And my galleries are a partner with me, like we are both going for a good common cause. They want to make money. I want to make money. And so we're going to work together to make that happen. And I think that there are a lot of people who are like, Oh, the calories. Are trying to do me wrong, and that's just not the case. They just, they want to help you as much as help themselves. So it's definitely a partnership. And so we discuss, you know, whether or not they are willing to give me a collector's name, and am I going to go around them to go sell directly to that collector? Heck no. You know, I mean, I have a understanding with my galleries that I won't undercut them. I won't knock the sale out from underneath of them, any collector that is connected with the gallery. I'm going to run that sale right through the gallery, so because it benefits me just as much, this is a long term relationship. So that being said, one of the things that I do is, if I know that I am going to deliver work, which the two galleries that I have right now are within driving distance, so I will drive my work to the gallery, and ahead of time, I'll send out a newsletter that basically says I'm going to be at the gallery on this date, and I would love to meet up, come and meet me at the gallery, and we can talk about this piece, you know. And so I've met a few collectors that way, who either already bought my work or have been dying to see the work in person, and they met me there, and we forged a relationship together, and that in person thing is just wonderful, and I tried to do that As much as possible. Now I have collectors in England, in France, you know? I mean, I'm not going to get to meet every collector in person, but I love it when they engage with me. And so I will, sometimes, I'll post a photo of the painting, say, sold online on one of my social media sites, and then the collector will come forth and say, Oh, it was me that bought it. And I'm like, great. This is wonderful. Then I have a conversation that I can engage with them and find out a little bit more why they like the piece, a little bit more about them. And so I'm just always open to the conversation, I guess. And to that end, I send out a newsletter once a month or more, and I try to post on my Instagram page two to three times a week. And I'm just me. I'm not nearly as polished as a lot as a lot of the people who post on Instagram and all the videos that they're doing now I'm like, I try, I do the best that I can, but I am what I am,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:50

yeah, and honestly, the efforts that you're putting in are definitely paying off, right? Because I love that idea of, Oh, hey guys, I'm going to be at the gallery this day, and I'd love to meet any of you who've collected my work. That's that's awesome, because, yeah, oftentimes I have met artists who are, I guess, since there's that relationship with the gallery, right, and the gallery doesn't always share who your collector is, you might as well just like, put your foot out there and be like, hey, you know what? I invite you guys to hang out, literally, at the place where you bought my work, or want to buy my work. And that feels a lot more safe, and I don't know, than trying to, quote, unquote, steal those exact collectors out from the gallery. Yeah.

Heather Arenas: 24:27

Well, and I'll work with the gallery, and they invite people to come and see me too, you know. So if they know somebody who has been interested in my work, they will specifically call them up and say, Heather's going to be there on such and such a date, you know? And then we coordinate a time, and I get there, you know, I'm not, I'm not a flaky artist in that I do what I say I'm going to do, and I show up. That's 90% of the game, right? It's just show up and then do the work. So Exactly, yeah, it works out really well, though, to have. Have that kind of partnership and understanding with the gallery.

Joseph Gyurcsak: 25:03

You have to develop friendship. You have to have a gallery that really believes in you don't just try to be in a gallery where you say, Please, can I get in your gallery? That's the wrong position to go in. You need to be in places where they say, Yeah, I believe in this work, and because, if they believe in it, they're going to sell it, because they at the end of the day, when somebody walks in the gallery, remember The Gallerist or the gallery director, those are the people that are going to speak about you. So they have to know you. They have to believe you. You have to develop a relationship. You only need one good gallery. You don't need a 1020, of them. I mean, I know some artists have that, but really, you have to have that sincere relationship connection to the you know, sometimes the galleries don't share who the collectors that bought it. Sometimes they do. That depends on the relationship and how that goes. But if you do have a collector that buys from you straight up direct, because I sell things on Instagram or, you know, through my website, or if somebody comes around and says, I bought this from the gallery, always make sure that you send out some sort of Thank you, and that's really a good thing, like thank you for supporting me and my famp. We send out a note, like a card, and it says, Thank you for supporting me and my fam, my journey, my family, this and that. People have to know how much that means that, you know, you invested in me and gave me I used to make a joke, but I and people would think I'm really seriously. Say, yeah, if I don't sell pain this month, my my wife said I can't paint anymore, really. Oh, my god, yeah, so I need to sell, you know. But aside from all the joking, yes, you're supporting somebody's journey, you know. And you know, back in the day, if you read the old art books, they would have like, what you call a sponsor, like somebody sponsoring you to be an artist. Well, yeah, artists need to make money like everybody else. So when you find those people that do support, you, let them know. You know how much that means. Just a little note to them or something to keep them in the loop. I'm not that great on my website for doing the newsletters, but I when I just finished a workshop in Belgium. The artists really said, I said, I don't want to bug people all the time with a newsletter this and that. Say, well, even if you do it four times a year, so I'm actually going to do that based on the feedback I got from this workshop. I'm going to try to do a newsletter every quarter, at least, because I think I didn't realize that they were telling me they want to hear what I'm doing. So I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm going to do it. We're going to do it. Yeah? So there's a goal right there that I'm going to do that I haven't been doing. You know, make adjustments everything we're talking about. You hear something, hey, that's to your advantage. If people are giving you feedback and it's positive, you have to do something right first.

Kim Casebeer: 28:29

I think it's very important to show up. So if there is an exhibit, if you are part of an exhibit at a gallery or an art center, or really any place you should you should show up. You should be there, especially during the opening, for sure, and perhaps other times too, I have had situations where the gallery, this is more local my Kansas City Gallery, that's not very far away, so it's easier for me to get to it's a few hours where we've had an opening and I'm there. And then we also do, maybe another day, the next day, do a like a demo day, a more relaxed day where we're demoing and and the idea is, is that we can talk more one on one with people, because it's not quite as busy, it's not quite as crowded as the opening night was. And then I've had situations where perhaps we try a an ending Reception The show is getting ready, because most of the shows are two, three months long, and then you have an ending reception where people can reconnect with you. And so I think you have to, you have to go to those and and connect, connect with your collectors. Yeah, I think that's very important, but they also collectors will also connect with you in other ways. And one way I do that is with newsletters. So I have, I actually have two newsletters. One is. I would call it a general newsletter. So it has the show information, but it also has workshop information, classes, all those types of things. So a lot of artists subscribe to that newsletter. And then I have a second newsletter that is dedicated to collectors. And at least mine is, it's a little smaller, but it is, I would say it's just as important. And it only talks about the shows that are coming up or or maybe a photo of what's on my easel at at this moment, those types of things that a collector is going to really be invested in.

Scott Ruthven: 30:40

And then, if you don't mind, I always like to ask people, How did you find me? Whether it's a collector, I asked you this when you reached out to me, right? And it's, it fascinates me. The and I an example I just give is a recent I just picked up some commission for multiple paintings, right? And it's people that just live an hour away from me, but they found my work when they were visiting their son in California at a gallery in a show that I'm in. So, you know, I'm just a local guy for them, really, and but they saw my painting in person, and they like it. And they said, Hey, this is a Colorado guy. They looked me up. They signed up for my email, and now I've got some business from them. So you never know. It just such a great and the YouTube channel I started because I was getting more requests to teach workshops. I do teach plein air workshops, but they take a lot of time, and I'm teaching eight or 10 people, because I don't like to have a huge crowd. I think I really want to have that individual attention that I give to my students. But there's only one of me, and the time is just, you know, I can't the trade off in time is too much. So I started the YouTube channel as a way to just kind of do some live streams and that type of thing and and try to share how I paint. And then that became a community of people that tune in for those and the followership grew. I did monetize eventually, although I'm not gonna, you know, it's like, it'd be my full time job, because it's that's not what I want to do. But I like to teach. I like to share. And so that's a community of its own. I've sold work to that community. But you know, really, I try to, I try to give more than you know, a trick I would pass along is to nurture your community. Your collectors don't always look to just sell. Can I make a buck from this person? What can you give? How can you, you know, and giving might just be taking an interest in their life, sending them a nice note, remembering a birthdays, texting them. I mean, I'm on with I text with my collectors. I'm sure a lot of the you know artists do as well, but that's a great thing to do, because it doesn't really take anything. Everybody texts today. It's an easy thing. If you know somebody's birthday, text them a happy birthday, and so, you know, seek to give some value, rather than always just pulling value out of your audience, whether it's YouTube or your email list, your your galleries, that kind of thing. Because this emotional bank concept, if you've heard of it, you know, you can't, you can't keep making withdrawals out of your bank account without putting deposits in. So, you know, I seek to make more deposits than withdrawals.

David Griffin: 33:28

The other purpose is, is giving me a chance to connect in a different way with collectors. Galleries are important, and they have been important to me, but they don't offer the opportunity to meet and speak on an extended period of time with someone that's interested in buying your work. Most of it's done remotely. I'm not there when it happens. Shows are different matter. You can actually speak to, you know, an exhibit at a museum show or at the Coors show. You can actually speak to the people why they're interested. What, what, what stopped them, what connected? And that's what I really want to spend also in this art of wandering journey is hopefully being able to connect with new collectors and and establish a relationship, create an opportunity for for the collector to be part of the process of what I'm doing. Not that they would tell me what to do, but I want to know what. I want to know what, what made them aware of what I'm doing, what made them if it stopped them, fine, if it angered them, if it made them happy, if it brought them some peace. I need to know about all that, and the only way I can know about that is having a conversation, or some sort of dialog with them. So that's the other part of this process. Journey is I want to, I want to open up that avenue of you. Of connecting on a deeper level with the collector or the interested parties. It's just going to help me better. It's going to help me communicate better. It's going to be helped me to be a better artist. It'll probably help me be a better person. I'll find out. You know, what it is that I'm doing, if it makes any sense at all to anybody, if it matters. So those are the things that I think are on my mind today and will be for a while. And isn't it wonderful for me? Isn't this such a blessing for me to be able to because you're the first one, you are the initial platform that I've been able to that I've been given opportunity to announce this new endeavor. So I'm grateful to you for the timing and for the opportunity to talk about what's on my heart today. So thank you Laura and and BoldBrush and and Faso and all the other thing, all this, this umbrella of wonderful creative people that have given me the opportunity to show my work in such a wonderful fashion. So that's it continues to be a cool collaboration from my end of the stick, or my end of the bargain of surrounding myself with people that that allow me to be better at what I'm doing.

Miriam Schulman: 36:30

So Instagram tends to be a little bit more confessional. I wouldn't be as confessional on LinkedIn as maybe Instagram is, but much of the content you've posted in the past on those other platforms are it's exactly the same thing. They like, videos, pictures of your art in progress, your values, pictures of you working your studio pet, all those things. Of course, you don't have a studio pet, maybe your studio goldfish, I don't know, yes, yes, all those things behind the scenes content, but you want to make it behind the scenes content that's interesting to collectors, not other artists. So not, Oh, I couldn't decide whether to use Payne's gray or whatever, and this is how I saved my painting. That's something artists care about. Behind the scenes content for collectors, it's a different flavor so they want It's like the difference between knowing how the sausages are made, that's what artists care about, versus what's the speech that the waiter gives when he's telling you the specials that's like what a collector wants. It's like the magic,

Kim Lordier: 37:50

I think, you know, between the galleries that have been so kind to represent me and the shows that I've been a part of, I've been part of. I think, like a lot of us throwing my work out there to see what sticks, I started regionally or locally, and then regionally and then nationally. And I with the pastel medium, we have these societies that are we have societies around the world, and like California has four or five pastel societies, maybe four, and almost every state has one. And so they're a great resource, a great uplifting organizations to help you know, putting on shows. So my dealers and shows that I've participated in over the years have been kind of my access to a collector, a collector base. And that's probably that's been my way of moving through this. And I know for each one of us, you me, you know, my friends, people that are who may be listening to this, just the important thing is to know that each one of our journeys is unique, and there's no one way through this, because there's there's just, there's your way, and It's not the same as anybody else's. And I gave a lecture a long time ago at a convention, and I talked about climbing the proverbial ladder, you know, where shows, awards, articles, gallery, representation, name, branding, notoriety. Those are, those are the rungs of the ladder that we, kind of, you know, want to climb so that we get our work out there and create collector base and the out that outside acknowledgement of our work. You. Again, remember I said earlier that keeping that separate from your creative side is really important. But I caution folks to really avoid climbing someone else's ladder. Relish your own climb, and don't be in a hurry to get to the top of your ladder, because that's when it's time to go perfect your golf swing and not your brush stroke.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:24

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