Erik Koeppel: 0:00

More important than anything to do with marketing and business is to focus on the quality of what you do, not the marketability of of what you do in the long run and the long, long run as a human being, as an artist like strive for the great thing that you believe in as truth, not

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

worldly rewards. Welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors of old brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others where in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For today's episode, we sat down with Eric Copel, an American landscape painter celebrated for reviving the Hudson River School style through his masterful technique, philosophical approach and dedication to traditional craft and artistry. He emphasizes the importance of studying the old masters, not just to copy but to truly understand and internalize the knowledge behind their work. Eric encourages artists to focus on the quality and truth of their art, rather than Chase market trends or fame, believing that genuine dedication to craft ultimately leads to success. He offers practical advice on maintaining honest relationships with galleries, stressing the necessity of price consistency and open communication to build trust and stability. Eric also highlights the value of sketching from memory and observation as a means to develop a personal vision and deeper understanding of nature. Above all, he inspires artists to pursue their own path with integrity, reminding them that striving for greatness and authenticity is the most rewarding journey of all. Finally, Eric reminds us stay updated with his future exhibitions by signing up for his newsletter. Welcome Eric to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Erik Koeppel: 2:04

I am well, how are you

Laura Arango Baier: 2:12

welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura ankle Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, all stages of their careers. Okay, welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors are both you've got me bless you. My name is Laura Arango Baier, for those of you who are new to the podcast covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others we're in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For today's episode, we sat down with Eric Copel, an American landscape painter celebrated for reviving the Hudson River School style through his masterful technique, philosophical approach and dedication to traditional craft and artistry. He emphasizes the importance of studying the old masters, not just to copy, but to truly understand and internalize the knowledge behind their work. Eric encourages artists to focus on the quality and truth of their art, rather than Chase market trends or fame believing that

Erik Koeppel: 3:37

I'm Eric couple, and I guess people say that I'm reviving the Hudson River School style, which I just think of as American landscape painting. And I've been doing this kind of painting for about 15 years now, professionally, you know, making my living at it, not having another source of income other than selling paintings. And I've been lucky in that I can do what I love and do that.

Laura Arango Baier: 4:15

Yeah, and it is i Well, I think it's in part luck, and in part you can tell in your work that you've you've definitely worked hard for it. And yeah, I think there is some aspect where, of course, it's like, oh well, right place, right time, but I think you have the work to really back it up anyway, which is really awesome. And actually, that brings me to a question, which is, when did you begin to follow the path of the artist?

Erik Koeppel: 4:42

I just, I mean, you know, I think even as a small child, there were signs that I liked drawing more than other things, and I was just drawing and drawing and drawing. And then, unlike many of my peers as I got to be a sort of. Teenager and going to high school and whatnot, I didn't stop drawing. I just kept drawing and drawing drawing and then, you know, I as, as my sort of, as I evolved as a person. I just kept reflecting the the thoughts that I was having in drawing and painting. You know, I started painting probably at about 15 and, you know, just kept on tracking. So it's kind of there,

Laura Arango Baier: 5:30

yeah, yeah. And then you did study painting as well, didn't you like, once you finished high school, you said, Okay, this is what I want to do, right?

Erik Koeppel: 5:39

Yeah, yeah. So first I went to, you know, I knew in high school that I wanted to go to RISD, and so I went there. And then I think, like everybody, you know, when you get to kind of modernist art school, there are some surprises. So I realized pretty quickly, like that I wasn't going to want to do fine art painting at RISD because it was just wild and not the kind of stuff I was interested in learning in that department. So I went for the illustration department. And of course, also as a young person, was thinking like, well, I'd probably like to have a job someday so I can know how I'm going to live. And so the illustration department seemed practical from that standpoint too, although fairly quickly in that program, I realized that what I was inspired to do with painting wasn't super compatible with the kinds of assignments I was having from the illustration teachers specifically, like, I just didn't feel like something that came from an art director, you know, or was very commercial was, was what I wanted to do. And so even in the illustration department, there was a lot of teachers who were painters, and so I would focus on them and study with them, and then I did some apprenticeships with one of my favorite teachers, and that kind of thing, you know, where you pick up the things that you're going after?

Laura Arango Baier: 7:13

Yeah, yeah. And having that mentorship is also very important, since, of course, illustration, yeah, it has crossover with painting. And I think illustration can be useful also in terms of like composition and color composition, but not so much in realism, so to speak, which is obviously the type of painting that you do, and it's a lot of the it's what the old masters did. You know, it's a it's kind of hard to really get that kind of education only from illustration like because I do credit illustration with having carried the torch once classical painting really died out for a while, where people thought, oh, that's dead. That's in the past. No one does that, Thank gosh, that there are people who still kept it going. But yeah, I think I find it cool that you also did some illustration, and then decided, oh, maybe not, because you did go to New York Academy, right?

Erik Koeppel: 8:08

Yeah, yeah. I actually never did do illustration professionally. I just did the classes. You get a sense of what it's going to be like professionally. And of course, I was in school in the mid 90s, which like AutoCAD also had illustration as as a field around that time. So, you know, I was at RISD from 98 to 2002 so it was like people had left the professional field of illustration to go teach illustration at school. So it was kind of an interesting time for that anyway, where it was like, Oh, I thought I was doing this because I wanted a job, but it turns out that doesn't exist, but, but luckily, I wasn't that interested in that anyway. So yeah, right after RISD, as you said, I went to the New York Academy that was awesome. Like, you know, it had a lot of varied viewpoints regarding what realism could be today. Like from, you know, fairly very traditional points of view to very contemporary points of view. And particularly at that time period it was, you know, around 2002 2004 it was, it was a really interesting place to be. And I enjoyed it,

Laura Arango Baier: 9:28

yeah, yeah. And then, why? Why would you say that it's an interesting time to be there in those years?

Erik Koeppel: 9:35

Well, I think in that particular period, what it felt like to me, you know, each any, any school, has its kind of academic politics, but what it felt like to me was that at the time I was there, there was kind of an old guard going out, and a new guard coming in, and so there, there seemed like there was a tension in the faculty a little. Bit between, like, people who really wanted to keep what they taught like entirely traditional, and people who really wanted to add this kind of contemporary element that has become part of a lot of, I guess, what they would call representational painting, like art, fine art, painting that that shows things in it. And so one of the reasons for that kind of back and forth politically at that time, I think, was that the school had very recently become accredited and was granting master's degrees. And some of the conditions of that within our art world are that you have to nod to certain things, certain certain contemporary things, and so that was happening there, and that made it, I think, interesting and educational. And you could get vast competitive viewpoints between faculty. That made you think, you know, which is good for learning?

Laura Arango Baier: 10:55

Yeah, definitely, definitely, wow, that's, that's really interesting. And then did you? Was landscape something that came up for you when you were studying there? Or how did your work kind of evolve into more of the Hudson River style movement?

Erik Koeppel: 11:14

Yeah, well, it's interesting. The for me at that time, the landscape painters that I was interested in were more the European landscape painters that the Hudson River School artists themselves were interested in at the time when they were kind of doing the grand tour and going overseas and so, like, you know, the people who you know, I think some of The Hudson River School artist met constable. Constable was an artist who I was really interested in. And of course, when you study him, you get down the whole Dutch path of Van roysdale and those guys, and then the more classical side, Claude Lorraine had a whole sort of school of landscape painting that came out of just his work. And so I was interested in all of this stuff. And I was learning, like, ink drawing, and I was doing figures, and I was putting landscapes behind figures that had an element of invention. And I was, you know, so I was, I was interested in landscape painting, but I didn't have a particular direction as far as my own line of study, you know, it seems like in my mid 20s I was trying lots of things and trying to do the best paintings that I could. And then, you know, towards my late 20s is when it kind of synthesized into something that started to be more clear,

Laura Arango Baier: 12:46

yeah, yeah. I think that's a natural progression. I think it's very normal for many artists to go through that sort of experimental phase that then evolves into, you know, I kind of like this thing that I'm trying right now, and then that kind of turns into something else. Because I think you mentioned to me too that you did do the the Hudson River fellowship, right? That's a like, because it's like, a scholarship, right?

Erik Koeppel: 13:10

Yeah, so the Hudson River fellowship has, I think, changed a lot since its beginning. So it's like, originally, let's see, there was maybe one or two years before I went on it. On the first year that I went on it, what it was described as was a residency. Like, it wasn't really classes. It was like, you know, a whole bunch of artists, some of them more students, some of them more professional, were all gathering and discussing landscape painting specifically and with it, with the mindset of reviving the ideals of the Hudson River School, which was particularly cool at that time period, because it was done right in the Catskill Mountains, right at the places where you can go for a little short hike and be like Thomas Cole painted here, Asher B Duran painted there, and Gifford painted from this exact rock. And you can see the rock, you know, and so, so it was. It was really interesting time of discovery, because, you know, I had studied mostly the European landscape painters, and like becoming much more aware of these American painters and how awesome they were and and how beautiful the works they created, but also that you could have this very exact understanding of how they related to nature by comparing things that were very much right in front of you, you know, with how they painted them, you know. So I ended up getting involved with that program for, I would say, five or six years, like the first time I was as a resident. And then the next year, they started doing workshops, and I was one. The workshop teachers. And then I think for for two to three years, it actually came up to where I live, in Jackson, New Hampshire. So I was kind of hosting, you know, showing, showing everybody their spots. And, you know, we're talking to people stuff. And so as well, as, you know, continue to teach a little bit workshops alongside with the residents. So it was this kind of big celebration of landscape. Nice,

Laura Arango Baier: 15:27

that's awesome. I would just say that that was also very, I guess, more of like a moment for you where you realized, oh, wow, this is actually really awesome. Like, landscape, is really it?

Erik Koeppel: 15:39

Yeah, I would say that over the course of that five or six years is when I really became more fully focused on landscape. And even as I was doing figure, the figure was becoming more kind of small in the composition, you know, more part of I became really interested in the idea of how the landscape expresses human content, you know, and this was a huge thing for the Hudson River School. Like, a lot of these guys were very spiritual, poetic guys you find in their writing, and like, they had a lot of feeling that they saw reflected in the landscape. And so I shared those kinds of feelings, and I saw how they could bring out human responses from natural things, and became very interested in that, you know, and that might have, that might have been, for me, a little bit of just a growing up thing too. You know, as you, as you get later into your 20s, and as you get into your 30s, you know things, things, for me, at least, like, oh, like, what is, what is a naked human body look like, started to get less interesting. Things that, like, maybe have more to do with the mind and, you know, the our sort of relationship with the universe were things that started to become increasingly interesting to me. So I was, you know, reading a lot of, you know, ancient Greek philosophy, and then, you know, all kinds of everything in between, from the transcendental, you know, Emerson and Thoreau and these guys, all that thinking was influencing this movement towards essentially understanding the divine through nature. You know, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 17:35

yeah. I was actually gonna say it reminds me very much of the idea of the sublime. You know, how there's there are nature, especially paintings like yours, you know they're supposed to reflect that sublime, which is this overpowering, huge natural force that when a human looks at it, they just feel maybe small, but at the same time, just at all the grandeur of nature and how we're still a part of it. And I, like, I that's also something that I think about, probably, maybe because I'm in that time period of reflection about it. But, yeah, it's, it's interesting to think about how small we really are in the scope of everything, time and nature were like at the very last minute. And then even within that, you know, just thinking of retracing those footsteps of someone who was there 100 years ago or more, and seeing what they saw, and it's still there, I think that's ah, that is such a great representation of that cycle of life, you know, and trying to capture these things that will remain there basically for much longer than us, at least. But then also our paintings, hopefully will also remain for some time as well. So it's kind of an interesting sort of, I don't know, like the cycle of life, so fascinating. So I can totally understand that.

Erik Koeppel: 19:04

Oh yeah, just speaking to what you said about the sublime, something that I've found as sort of major threat in my work, and also that we see in the historic landscape painters, is the sublime on one hand, and then balanced on the other hand, we have the pastoral, or pastoral, whatever you're supposed to say it. But I kind of think of those two things a lot with with my work, in that, you know, in the sublime, you have, as you say, like the sort of the great power and grandeur of nature, making you feel small, making you humbled. And of course, like feeling humbled is something that a lot of us really need to have. You know, in order to go go through the. Process of trying to become better people. And of course, also on the pastoral side, we have humankind in harmony with nature, you know, and so much like the peaceful trees we see behind your head right now, you know, like the parking type of thing, and then, you know, that's probably a Shishkin, but if, if it were ash grand, we'd probably see some little sheep going by, or cows, you know, and maybe a figure sitting contemplating this. And these, these types of things, at first communicate something very kind of simple and peaceful to the viewer. And then, as they unfold, if it's a really great painting, it kind of it leads from that simple, peaceful, meditative feeling to higher thoughts as these kind of different elements in the picture balance themselves. Not that like a peaceful a peaceful meditative feeling is, I suppose, a higher thought. But I also think that you can get, you know, you can get even more as these paintings unfold,

Laura Arango Baier: 21:15

yeah, yeah. And I think I like that distinction you make as well, because, of course, the pastoral, or pastoral, I also don't know how to I just found pastorals. They are very peaceful, and they do bring a bit of like that, meditative, like calm. But then the I feel like the sublime paintings are so shocking, in a way, like they they really stun you, and then you just can't stop looking. It's like when you go hiking and you're so tired going up this hill, and then suddenly you reach the top and you see the view, and you just it catches your breath, and you're just mesmerized by just the beauty of nature and how you truly are just a small thing, or so small and fragile. And of course, a pastor will bring calm to that, where it's again, you're small, but it's okay, and you know, you can be in harmony, but then that's sublime. Oof. It really. It's a almost like a loving punch to the gut. But, yeah, I'm also much more. I lean much more to that sublime aspect, in my preference, with paintings as well. Yeah, there's just something about there's a bit of a more melancholic tone, I think, in the sublime, than there is in the pastoral, for sure, which I also really see in your work. And I really want to ask you a bit more about your process, because truly, I would be like your first student, because I think I look at your work and like, how did he do that? How did he make it look almost exactly like like, of course, now it's a contemporary recreation of a revival of this movement, but you have captured so beautifully the technique where the it just makes it fits in so perfectly. So I want to know a bit more about your process with your work. Do you start with plein air? Do you work on site as much as possible? How much of your balance is studio work versus plein air?

Erik Koeppel: 23:17

The balance of studio versus plein air is is varied. You know, it's varied seasonally, but and it also, it's varied from year to year. You know, I've had years where the whole warm season I was outside all the time, you know, sunrise to sunset. And then as as I've gotten older, I've really liked spending more time in the studio and really choosing my days to go outside. You know, like, if I look out the window and I'm like, oh my goodness, there's very wild clouds. Like, I'm going to go up into the mountains and check these out from a place where I like to look at clouds. Or so it's, it's really like, when I go outside now, it tends to be more very much in the pursuit of something that I need for something in the studio, where, when I was younger, there was a lot more of this just, you know, I have so much to learn about what's out there that and that's what's out there to learn is endless. But because I have more of this desire to bring bigger ideas to fruition that ends up taking a lot of time in the studio. And so a lot of times I'll go outside to either draw or do a small painting that's in some way supportive of something I need to know for a bigger you know, for a bigger painting. But, and then I do tons and tons of drawing, you know, tons of Sketchbook drawing, both from nature and from imagination, just compositions and things like that. So, you know, I have a sketch. Here. I don't know if this would be too useful to show on a little tiny video screen or not, but, you know, on this little pages is about six, six different tiny little compositions and and then those all would have done pretty much straight from memory and imagination, like there's another page, and I would just maybe do one or two of these a day, tiny little things. And so I draw my sketchbook every day, and a lot of this is just invented stuff. And then I'll just say you can edit this however. You like, you know, you know, there's a drawing that's just made up, but I really believe that that sketching all the time is one of the most important things that an artist can do. You know? You look at the past, and you look at the drawings of the Masters, and you can see so much of how the end product was formed as like a big picture as a whole, from what sometimes seems like deceptively simple drawings. You know, like from Raphael to Rembrandt to constable to Cole you know, they weren't. They weren't drawing to show off. They weren't drawing to make like a product in and of itself, like they were really drawing to support their what they considered their great, important works. And so for that reason, the drawings, they had no reason to hide anything in those drawings. You know what I mean? Like, they really, they really show and give, give hints to how these paintings were made and how important design and pictorial structure is, you know, like if you look at Thomas More and drawings, you can see years of drawings where, like, he never had anything go out to the edge of anything, like nothing, nothing touched the edge of the page, you know. And I was like, looking at this and thinking and thinking and looking and thinking, and then you go and look at his paintings, and you're like, wow, how does he get that crazy dynamic, like swirling of things? And it's like he doesn't have, or tends not to have, like, high contrast anywhere at the edge of the picture, like all the action is in the picture. And you can really see, like how, how these drawings and watercolors sort of solidified his vision for the wholeness of how a picture fits together. You know, no, holy

Laura Arango Baier: 27:54

cow, first of all, your sketches are amazing. And I think it the first thing that really it brings to mind is, I totally understand how your process has evolved, also, because you know when, when you're starting out, like you said, you know you're going out there, you're learning. But then, of course, as you sort of graduate more or less from that learning stage, and you know more and more, of course, there's always more to learn. But I feel like it's, you know, diminishing returns a little bit. You can rely so much more on memory, right? Like the only way that you can pull off those imagined compositions that you showed is through that memory exercise. Like you, I feel like it's so underrated to draw from memory and to paint from memory, because it is the biggest test of memory ever. I mean, I remember being a student and being like, I'm going to draw a person from memory. And then I realized, oh, wait, how does this part of the body actually work? You know, it's like, once you're missing that component of oh, you can't look it's like, oh my gosh. Now I really have to understand it. And of course, memory exercises are so good at that, of course, nature is a little bit more forgiving. Unless you're really going to go extra, you know, like a discovery channel, where you really want a very specific type of tree, then you really need to get to know that specific type of tree, or the type of grass or the type of rocks. But I think for sure, that's the first thing that you really brought up. I'm like, Ah, yes. And then that other part you mentioned that really lifting that hood underneath the old masters, seeing their drawings. I mean, for me, especially, like looking at Kurose, like sketches for his landscapes, also, it's like, Ah, this is how he's thinking. And they're beautiful. Like you said, it's like, oh my gosh, I want to, I want to draw like this. But for them, it's like, no, no. This is like, key information for a bigger piece or a different painting, or even future paintings. So I wouldn't be surprised if you did something similar, where you have a bunch of notes from one place, and then when you're going to make a new painting, you have all these notes. To refer to, which is really cool. And that reminds me of something you mentioned, too about actually being at these sites and noticing all the edits, so to speak, that the masters have done. Do you mind telling us a little bit about

Erik Koeppel: 30:14

that? Yeah, sure, sure. So, you know, in my searching around for Master, you know, sometimes I just run into places that masters have painted. And one of the places that's easy to find right around here is there's a 10 foot painting that Albert Bierstadt did of emerald pool, which is, you know, 15 minutes up the road from my house. It's a great swimming hole. It's a great place to paint, but it was a very educational experience to discover that painting, knowing the pool itself, very, very well, because, you know, if so, this 10 foot painting, there's maybe a section that's maybe two by three feet that, you know, like, if it for this painting behind Me, it would be about, you know, a little section, like a little tiny section of it that was very directly and super specifically done from this specific pool of water in the Peabody River, undeniably, you know, and and then the rest of the painting was, was either in many parts, completely made up, but then particularly the background. You can see where he took the background mountain range from and the weather is a place that's like maybe 234, miles down, where you have to actually go around a whole mountain to get a similar view to what he had for his mountains. And so there's even, you know, cutting all the trees in the world, there would be no way to see that mountain from that pool, but, and yet, it's very specific features on Mount Washington. You know, it's lion's head, it's Tuckerman Ravine and and so you think that Bierstadt must have done sketches from a few different sites along a, you know, along what would have been the carriage road at that time, and kind of completely made up and created the middle ground in between the two things with, you know, what we would call white mountain scenery, you know, like he took elements that would be natural, kinds of trees, kinds of rock and Cliff formations that would be natural to here, and just sort of made those up to fit the background together with the foreground. And then, of course, he has, you know, a couple deer coming to drink at the pool, which he would have probably sketched from taxidermied animals in some degree, but also, like just sketching to your motion of animals in nature with quick gestures. And so it's really awesome, because then you see the painting, you know, the places, and then later on, somebody shows me this study, which like, confirms exactly what I said, where he has this, like, you know, 20 by 26 piece of paper that has a study, you know, a highly detailed study of the exact region of the pool that's accurate. So it's like, oh, okay, so we have this, like, you drew this into the middle of a huge canvas and then just made this symphony of white mountain scenery to go with it. You know, when you, when you see old masters do that, it's, it's like, okay, well, what I'd like to do is figure out how to, how would I do this myself? And if you don't mind, I'll continue on that topic, please. So this, this ties back to what you said about memory, which you know, if you consider the beginning of modern painting in the Renaissance, you know what we think of as modern painting, and you look at the drawings of, say, Raphael and DaVinci and Michelangelo, particularly people in the realist tradition today, like studying in the ateliers, who are very used to like copying optical such situations, like very, very closely, will notice that that In those kind of structural drawings of the Masters, particularly the older Renaissance master, particular that there's something like a little different going on than just copying just what you see. And like, an example I bring up in lectures a lot is this drawing of that Da Vinci has done, which it's a pretty famous little sketchbook drawing of his. But like, there's a little tube, pipe, like a spring that water is coming out of, you know, it's not the most profound drawing in terms of, you know, like his drawings of beautiful figures and faces and things, but like you see, you see the water come out of the tube, you know, and then it pours free form down. Into a pool like a spring. And so you can see that Da Vinci's mind and the way that he's working on, the way that that water pours into water, is not just not at all copying like glittering light or like even just form, but his lines are circling around and studying like the various forces that are in play. Like he's studying like the water going underneath the other water, then swirling around, then coming up to meet, you know, coming up to meet that, and then pressing out and going towards, like, along the surface of the water pressing out and going towards the edge of the pool. And then he has curved lines that press of it reflecting back, which is this sort of like, you know, like the water is breathing, you know. And so the reason, the reason I bring that drawing up is because you don't, you don't do that drawing in order to just copy an individual situation of water, you do it to acquire an understanding of the thing. Like to acquire knowledge. Like to to to gain the physics of it. And so if you, if you take that principle that like, so let's just say the old masters were not saying like, Oh, I'm going to draw this in a certain light in order to cap for in order to face the challenge of capturing it, but that they were going out with their sketchbooks in order to acquire knowledge. Then suddenly you think like, well, that then that makes sense that, like, linear perspective was so important, even though linear perspective is a completely and utterly non optical phenomenon, like it's it's not existent in the way we observe nature, because, you know, points that are up above are further from our eye than points down below. So there would be no true vertical which we all encounter when we try and line our little cameras up. But, but like linear perspective was so important, because it it can create, it comes from a body of knowledge that can create a reality within a space, you know, and so, so you're taking your flat rectangle and creating a space within it. And so, once you accept the idea that all the study that the masters were doing was actually for the sake of trying to be be able to within their mind, create the world of their painting. You know, create the world of the painting from their mind, just them and the painting without study. You know, without your your photo next to you, or without your outdoor study next to you, or even your little drawing, that that suddenly makes sense as a whole line of reasoning for why they did what they did. So it's like, you know, you could, you know, Raphael created micro architecture that was, you know, a building that never existed is sitting in the background of a Raphael painting in atmospheric perspective and correct linear perspective. And he also designed the building himself, you know. So that process is very, very far, although these guys could all capture something, you know, they could capture a gesture. But that process of like looking at everything and looking at the universe and sort of acquiring knowledge, is very, very far actually, from just being able to make a big picture of something you know, of something in the in the way that a camera takes a picture of something you know. So that's something that I gleaned pretty early on, and that I was that basically all my work has been bent towards and in terms of a method of technical study. But then the potential results of that kind of thing, I think, are even far beyond and the sort of metaphysics of, you know, a human being's understanding of themselves within the universe you know, like to try to know the universe you know.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:25

Jeez, wow. If you've been enjoying the podcast and also want to be able to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly BoldBrush live webinars, where our guest artists describe marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real time, whether you're a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you're stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don't miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next BoldBrush Live Webinar is coming up on. The 11th of September with our special guest, Samuel Hoskins, you can find the sign up link in the show notes. At BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that too, sign up completely free@boldbrushshow.com that's B, O, L, d, b, r, U, S, H, show.com the BoldBrush show is sponsored by Faso. Now, more than ever, it's crucial to have a website when you're an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link faso.com, forward slash podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that's basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won't get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you, day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, faso.com, forward slash podcast, that's F, A, S, o.com, forward slash podcast, wow, wow. Yeah, I It's so true. And I think you know that really just affect the quality of the work. Because, for sure, today, so many of us were live photography. And I totally get that. I mean, the in the Renaissance, I mean, a lot of people didn't have to necessarily worry about their cell phone or a bunch of other stuff that they had around them. So I think they also really did have a bit more luxury in terms of having time to focus, right? Because so much of our time is just so robbed by all of these distractions that we've created for ourselves. And also, I think today we have such a different speed, because the camera is so fast, it's just so easy to just take a picture and be like, Okay, I'm gonna paint this, which is totally fine. But if you're really chasing that quality, which I can totally see in your work, there is so much more, I guess, of the intellectual brain that has to come in that has to observe nature as it is and try to understand it, and try to, I guess, memorize it. Because, you know, it's so much of it is memory. Because the only way to really remember something is to really understand it to its depths, right? So having seen those, you know, little things and like, you know what you mentioned, like Da Vinci's observation of water, that guy was amazing. That just goes to show how far people can go if they really, really wanted to, in terms of observation of nature, and how that in itself can lead to really beautiful work. Because then, especially with Da Vinci, because, like his landscapes and just the way that he interpreted people, because I like to also tell people who care to hear that when you look at a painting by Da Vinci or by Raphael or by any of those old masters, especially the portraits, no one looks like that. No one looks like that. And it's because it is such a reinterpretation of the human right through this, of course, the influence of the classical sculptures that have been discovered around the time. But it's such an almost an architectural view of the human that is so rational, but at the same time so beautiful and masterfully made, that that's why today, you know, you try to paint like, I don't know, your neighbor, and it looks too much like your neighbor, and it's not really going to look like a Da Vinci or Michelangelo, because there's an element in there that has to be. It has to go beyond humanity. You know what I mean?

Erik Koeppel: 44:16

Yeah, no, I know what you mean. I mean, the thing you were just saying is particularly apparent if you were to look at through time images of Jesus, Christ. And I think the reason is because, you know, regardless of whether you believe in Christianity or not, like if you see it as mythology or just like a line of ethics, the sort of the the figure that he represents is a divine figure, right? So, obviously, in. An Italian Renaissance, the center of the Catholic world to depict that was to depict God. And so those artists would have been incredibly conscientious about the fact that, like this, had to be something more than man when they were doing it. And so you an exercise one might find kind of humorous was if you were to just google images of Jesus Christ, you would probably be startled at how apparent it is when an image of him is just an individual guy from a photo that has long hair and a beard compared to say, like, how Titian or Raphael like, somehow, like, you know, from the glowing light and from you know, some somehow harnessed something so deep and powerful and earth shaking from like a human face and a human body that that we just see it as truth, like we just see what they what they painted as truth, rather than as like an individual human and and it's interesting that like a character who is so huge and emblematic like that, can also be so reduced as to, you know, just look like kind of a hippie guy in sandals and a robe, you know. And like, I don't mean that to, like, belittle anybody's belief. Or, you know, I know there's a wide spectrum of feelings in the world right now regarding Christianity and I don't even want to say anything about my own feelings on it, but, but just I think that exercise is is a really easy way of seeing the difference between like, what things look like and and maybe what their potential is for an expression of a true, higher idea, you know, whether, whether it is part of your religion or not. You know, personally,

Laura Arango Baier: 47:10

yeah, no, totally. And I find that so fascinating, because for so so long, even you know, before the Renaissance, there were icons of Jesus, right? And especially in like I the first ones that come to mind are like the Eastern European icons, which were no one looks like that, right? And they're very iconic, literally, but also an icon being, you know, almost like an avatar, almost like this, every man, but almost no man at the same time, which I think, you know, I agree. It's, it becomes such a much better representation of this sort of etheric being that we don't really know, like it's, it's more of like this spiritual being, right, that a lot of people follow. And I think it's actually, it's much better to have a deity represented as this, no man, all man type of being. Because, you know, it's like, oh, I recognize humanity in it, which is how I feel when I look at like a Rembrandt, or I look like a at a da Vinci. It's like, oh, yes, I see this could be Mary. But at the same time, no one looks like that, right? It's like this. I don't want to say cartoon, but in a way, it is almost like a cartoon, which is, yeah, I think it's, it's such a fascinating little area that is so hard to see today. I think today, especially because of photography and the ease in which we can just, oh, I'm going to paint my friend so and so, and that's totally fine, you know, they can model and represent maybe, you know, like Artemis or another deity, if you want, but it doesn't change, like, oh, well, she looks exactly like that, which is something that, you know, just to finish this off, but it's something that the gosh man, a got in trouble for it when he painted, you know, the group of people in the in the picnic. And it's like, I recognize her. How scandalous, which, of course, the camera had already existed by then. So, you know, that really changed as time went on. And now today, it's like, oh yeah, you know, that's my friend, so and so. And yeah, they're naked in my painting, but they they were fine with it, and it's not a scandalous I guess this back then, but yeah, and I find that so, so interesting. And one last thing that I wanted to ask, you know, just to attach that, have you found that through observing the old masters, you've noticed maybe, like another key to creating masterful work,

Erik Koeppel: 49:40

I feel that the purpose of paint like, I feel that it's important like, as you know, people who we observe, you know, we try to think of things rationally, think through a, maybe a platonic perspective on things. I think it's important to note like, what is, what is the purpose of a paint? Right? And it seems like a really simple question, but of course, like, you know, through the lens of artists and all the discussions we've had, like it can very quickly get complicated, right? But then you know, probably if you were to go through some ledgers at the Vatican. You might find a little note somewhere that said, we're going to pay Michael Angelo this much to decorate the walls of the Sistine Chapel, you know. And so here we have what's fairly universally considered one of the most important works of all time, and what it's referred to there is a decoration for a wall. And in modernism, decorative or a decoration for a wall has become like a derogatory term. But back then, you would, you would be more apt to find that it was just simply a description of what they're actually doing. And so, you know, the nice thing about that decorative idea is is first you have you know what you are as a painter or as a sculptor. And even if some people act as both, like a sculpture, a sculpture is decorating a space, a painting is decorating a wall, an illustration is decorating a book, you know, and so many people have these long discussions about what's the difference between painting and illustration, and it's like for me that seems very simple, like an illustration occurs in a book and a painting decorates a wall. So the difference between decorating a wall and decorating a book is, in a book, you always have the text accompanying the image, which adds an explanation and a back and forth, whereas on a wall most of the time, except in, you know, museums and gallery walls, sometimes, most of the time, you will not have anything to describe the painting except whatever the painting describes to you itself. And so the reason that I've sort of felt that it's very important to recognize, as artists, as painters, our decorative purpose like that, that that is our sort of first fundamental purpose, to decorate a wall. Then you start to think like, well, to decorate the wall of a home is different from to directory. Decorate the wall of a church, to decorate a public building, and suddenly you look at art history and a lot of things make a lot more sense. You know, pre impressionist things particularly. And so if you make your first purpose to decorate a wall, immediately you have more commercial success because, because you're suddenly fulfilling a purpose for humanity, rather than just, you know, having your little mind palace in your studio and work which, which is really a 20th century concept, like It didn't, it didn't exist prior and so and so. I've sort of had this kind of solace in the idea that first you decorate a wall and whatever your great, profound ideas that you have as an artist that is on top of that first initial purpose, building, building, building, building. And so what would then, if you go back in time to consider like movements in art, you know, we love to think about the very best artists when we study art history. You know, we love to think about the guys and gals that we've been talking about and but all of those movements were accompanied by like, lower tier down, down the way, where some people maybe were just above sign painters, but were, you know, and we're talking about 19th century American painting now just above sign painters, but we're Running around rural New England, like painting trees into stairwells, you know. And there was who did that. And then sometimes in historic houses you can find that. And sometimes there's little guys with an ox cart and a narrow gate and, you know, like all these sort of symbolic things. And it's like, if you think like, that does decorate a wall, and it does make a space pleasant to be in. And it is nice, you know, like when you walk into that stairwell, it's okay to just be like, this is decorative. This is nice. It does not make me think the way that a Thomas Cole painting will make one think. But, you know. Yeah, but, but it's okay and then, and so you can start from a decorative idea and study yourself. And take time to study what your philosophical purpose is as a human being, and build that onto something that fulfills a fundamental purpose for humanity. You know, because people do need decorations for their walls, and like movie posters and things you know aren't as nice as something that a human being you know really did with their with their pencil and brushes.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:34

Yeah, and I love that it's, it is true that, you know, fundamentally, art is decorative, and you know. And I love the it then brings forth, you know, the idea of, like, different categories of painters, and any of them can make, you know, a living from it. Of course, your audience just changes, right? So, like, how you said, like, oh, commercially, could be successful as a more decorative painter. And that's totally fine. And then someone who maybe wants to add a little bit more of that philosophical layer on top, they can also maybe find their crowd. But also, if your paintings are still beautiful and decorative, there's no reason why you shouldn't also fall into the category of being commercially successful, because you're still decorating a wall with something that is beautiful to look at. Maybe it doesn't make you think too hard if you don't want to, but you can, you have the option, if you know what I mean? Yeah, that is, that is really great. I think that's a really good question for people to ask themselves, you know, about what is the purpose of what I'm doing? And I'm also one of those people who who really thinks that fundamentally, you know, it's okay to create for the sake of creation. There's nothing wrong with that. And I think also fundamentally, and it's something that I was thinking about a lot, is that humans are natural creators, like we always want to make something. A lot of people might think they're not creative, but they are. I mean, you have to put together a meal, and that's a pretty creative thing, because you have to come up with something. But, yeah, I love that. I also wanted to ask you, because you do work, you know, with galleries. And you started working with galleries when you were quite young. So that also brings me to the question of, when did you become a full time artist, and what was that experience like for you?

Erik Koeppel: 57:15

So I was making, you know, just about enough to live on with my paintings when I was 29 ish, and I didn't get comfortable enough to fully leave the part time job until I was maybe 3031 like, like it took, well, Maybe it was 28 then, because I remember, I remember it felt like it took two or three years before I was like, Okay, I've consistently made enough for two or three years that, like I could say that I can pay my bills and, you know, and that kind of stuff. And so even with that feeling like when I was 3031, and quit the part time job, like, it's pretty stressful those first few years, because it's like, if you're, if you're making a living, but you're making it in these chunks where it's like, oh, you might sell a big painting and get, you know, five figures, but then, like, you have to, because you don't know where The next five figures are going to come from, or even the next four figures, you have to kind of, like, really, like, live in a very skimpy way. You know, you have to be really safe and conservative if you're not going to have a job. And like, you can supplement with, like, at that time, I supplemented with workshops and things a little bit more. I haven't really been teaching in a long time, but so what I would say is maybe by, I would say by maybe five years after that, like when I was in my mid 30s, was when, I mean, I say comfortable with a grain of salt, because I still sometimes, like, although it isn't rational, like, it isn't rational for how I'm doing right now, but I still sometimes get those old feelings of, like, you know, I just never know what's going to happen next month. You know what I mean, like, it's a little bit like, like, it's a little different from like, having a job, you know, like you're running a business, and what you sell is essentially a luxury product. And so you need, you know, you need buyers that buy in that category. And you don't always know, you know what's going to cut, you know, there it's gotten now, you know, now I'm, I've been doing this for 15 years. I've been making my living that for 15 years. You know, there's, there's always a monthly income, there's always sales every month, and there's always commissions coming to completion. There's often things. Like, you know, people buying paintings on a schedule, so you know that you're going to get, you know, so it's gotten over years to be a little more predictable, I guess is the way I would put it. But, um, but, you know, it's definitely a big leap of faith to just be like, well, you know, I've, I've made just enough live to live on for three or four years, so I'm going to just try and live on paintings for the next five years. It's a tough choice to make and but I'm glad I made it. And in some ways, like being in that situation, I think also can push you. You know what I mean? Like being in that situation where you have to do that, if you start to feel like things are lean, you're going to be like, well, do I schedule a workshop? Or do I go to some new place and make a bunch of paintings? Or, like, you know, like, find some new inspiration that might just create some, you know what? I mean, create something. So that's, that's my story there. That's probably

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:03

little, that's, it's really great, because it seems like you, you've always really had your mindset on painting, and, you know, everyone has a different path. But I feel like, you know you're, for sure, you were like, Oh no, I'm really gonna do the thing. And I remember last time we also mentioned that you worked closely with the gallery. And then, you know, that evolved into also learning a bit more about how galleries kind of did their thing. Do you have advice for someone who wants to work with galleries, or have work with a gallery, like, Are there any things that they should look out for, or, like, be careful with? Or like, you know, almost like green flags versus red flags. If you have any that come to mind,

Erik Koeppel: 1:01:45

I mean, it's, it's, it's really hard to say exactly like, what will suit each different person's path, like, based, based on their work and who they are and how they like to work in in the world, like, like, I have a friend who's a very, very fine artist that he just isn't happy unless he has some kind of job as well. Like, because this the stress of doing that doesn't make him happy, you know? And so, so I think, like, every personality is different, and you have to, you know, it's almost like if you were talking about investing in the stock market, and you have to be able to weigh your, your personal ability to take risk happily, you know, and then also your, your willingness and ability to build your life around, you know, what it might take to reduce risk, say, like, if you're, you know, like, in those early years, like, you know, I drove beat up Nissan Sentra, you know, with really good snow tires and so and so. Like, you know, I was willing to make all kinds of like life comfort sacrifices in order to keep things lean, so that I could focus on my work. And, you know, as I've gotten more comfortable, you know, I've done some more things, you know, that, like having a wife and kids and not, or, you know, not, not that like I consider that. I didn't

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:27

mean it's hard to be lean when you have a family, that's for sure. Yeah, you have more, more responsibilities.

Erik Koeppel: 1:03:33

Yeah. I didn't mean that as a possession, just, oh no, you're good. You know, that's like a life choice that for many artists, it's helpful to wait on, you know, wait a little bit to do those things, if, if what you're serious, you know. So there's all kinds of priorities and life choices. So I have a really hard time in general, like, without knowing someone's specific situation, like sending a broader advice. But what I would just say is, I guess, don't be afraid to work with a lot of different people and learn what they're about, and don't put all your eggs in one basket. Maybe you know, because people can seem one way and be acting another way. And people can, you know, galleries do all kinds of things, and some of them are very nice, and some of them are not. And dealers that I've been working with for 16 or 18 years that that we have a very understood relationship. And like, I've also worked with other people for much shorter periods of time, because there was some kind of imbalance in the relationship, and it's, I personally think it's very, very important to be honest with people about what your needs are, what your. Doing, and sometimes that takes some courage to do, because every relationship with every gallery and dealer is different. And so all these things that some people put into contracts, or some people might tell you are like the rules of the business, you know that, Oh, nobody does this like everybody does everything, it's just a matter of having honest relationships, ideally with with good people. You know, because if a gallery really cares about what you do intellectually, which, like many of them, don't at all, they just want to sell paintings. But if they, if they do really care about what you're doing, or they see that it's something that might be good for the world and like as well as good for their clients, like the good art dealers, they don't want you to suffer in order to be in a relationship with them, you know. And it's like, think, think of it as you know, a relationship with a partner or a friend, you know, like you know, Aristotle had his three categories of friendship, like friendships of pleasure, friendships of of utility, and then, like what he called True friendship, which is like where two people legitimately want the good for each other. And so, like most gallery relationships would be in the friendship of utility category. You know where, like you both benefit from being honest with each other. And you know, doing something that benefits both. You know, very in rare cases, you might become actual friends with a gallery. But you know, in the true sense, you know, where you truly wish, wish well for each other, you know. And that's, of course, an ideal friendship for old Aristotle,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:49

yeah, yeah. And you know, that is something that one can aim for. But for sure, you know, fundamentally, that relationship is a business one. I mean, that is the biggest, I think, thing to take note of that you mentioned, because, of course, The Gallerist wants to make money, and depending on their personality and how they run their business, which from person to person, can totally vary, that could mean putting you, you know, in an uncomfortable position and or that can mean, you know, taking very good care of you so that you Don't run away because, you know, you provide really good money for them and for yourself. So it's a very interesting, symbiotic type of business relationship. But it's a very good point that you make, you know, like not being afraid to, you know, put your foot down if something isn't feeling right, or definitely working with many different or trying to at least work with different people. Because, of course, it's so important that you know, like you mentioned, not putting all your eggs in one basket, because then, you know, if something goes bust with a specific gallery, you almost got to start all over, right, especially if, like, some galleries might be like, Oh, we want you to be exclusive with us in this entire country. That's kind of, that's a big problem, or can be a big problem, because then that gallery really, really has to, I guess, guarantee that they can take care of you as an artist and take care of your sales as an artist the same way that you would be able to if you had 5678, galleries, right? Like, it's kind of like, a, ooh, is that something that I can do, right?

Erik Koeppel: 1:08:29

Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, and that's, that's, again, like, it's, it's such an individual thing, like, you have to picture, like, what, what is the painting, you know, like, what? What is? What is the product? Where is the person in their career? Like, nobody, honestly, nobody has approached me with the idea of an exclusive contract in a long, long time. And it may just be that, like they look at my website and see that that's not an option. But you know, particularly when you're on that, on that young you know, when you're on that, I guess they call the emerging, you know, the emerging artist line, like they're right on that cusp of, kind of becoming professional, as where I had the most sort of challenges, and, you know, because you don't know the business as well at that age either. And there's, there can be people that you know, mean well, but you don't see that they mean well. And there can also be the opposite, where they don't mean well, and you don't see that they don't mean well. And so there's, there's just such a variety of situations, and it's, it's good to talk to the people. Around you that you know that are unbiased. You know, like, you might have teachers that are so far down the line from that point that they can hardly remember it. And then you might have, like, some colleagues and friends that surround you from school where, like, maybe somebody has gotten two or three years ahead of you, and somebody else has gotten two or three years behind, or whatever. And like those conversations about, like, hey, what have you encountered? Like, what have you done? And how are your relationships with this person or that person? And like, all the all those conversations with with sort of people that are near your kind of age or stage of of professional development can be really, really helpful, because, because that, that good communication is just useful. It's like, it's, I mean, I wish we had a wonderful Union, but because we don't have a union like, you really have to kind of talk to the people around you. You

Laura Arango Baier: 1:10:59

know, yeah, yeah, huh. That could be something worth doing in the future. You know, just having an artist union for North America where people can write in about their experiences with galleries, because, you know, that can vary so much. But yeah, that's a that's, those are all very excellent points. And do you find that personally, do you sell more so through galleries? Or has it been mostly just personal commissions, or has it all been just you MAINTAINING RELATIONSHIPS WITH YOUR collectors? What do you find has been the best marketing approach that you've taken to sell more of your work? Do

Erik Koeppel: 1:11:42

so that I have benefited from all those things that you've said, you know, so in, you know, in the age of social media and the age of websites like, I think it's really important. It has been really important for me to, like, keep a degree of openness in terms of my ability to work directly with clients, you know. So that's something that I look for in a gallery, but you also, you have to be able to do that in a context where you're honest with the gallery, not that you know. Well, what I would just say is, is, you know when something you're doing is wrong, and you know when something when you're doing is right, and then you know when there's a sort of vague gray area in the middle, and like, what I've sort of tried to do is think to myself, like, well, if I feel like I'm in this gray area where I'm not quite sure, I should probably talk to the people involved, rather than just like, you know, people end up in situations where, you know, you don't want to end up in a situation where you have to keep secrets in order to keep good relationships, or something like that. And like, I've sort of worked with the the general idea that, like, the art world is kind of small, and that, like the things that you do will come to light, you know, and and so you should be able to have a clean conscious about, like, well, even if I've done something that was within our agreement and that, you know, maybe somebody else wasn't happy about, they can at least remember that conversation that we had where I told them what I was doing and that we had agreed to It, you know. So it's like, it's not telling everybody what they like to hear all the time, but it's being honest and trying to keep a good, good standard of relationships with people,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:55

I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of stuff that I've heard about, you know, people trying to undercut galleries, and then that bites them pretty hard in the butt later on, especially if you know they were being very they were trying to be discreet. But as you said, you know this, the art world is very small. Galleries talk to each other. Artists talk to each other. Like, oh, so and so did this. And so it's very, very good to do, like you said, you know, have that transparency and those conversations like, hey, you know, this person came to me wanting a commission or wanting to buy this painting, but I know it's with you this gallery, right? I, you know. Just want to let you know so that it doesn't you know, you guys know you're still going to get, like, a commission. I'm going to tell this person, no, you have to go through the gallery. But you know, I know some artists might do something different. We're like, oh, well, for the big paintings, you guys are definitely having those. But then I get the right to sell any studies or any smaller things that are like, you know, small fish that the gallery probably wouldn't try to sell. You know, it's like, okay, I get to reserve those for, you know, maybe if I have, like, a studio sale or something, but that's still good to, you know, discuss with the gal. Like, Hey, would you guys be open to this? Or can I just, you know, take my little itty bitty painting studies and do what I want with them, right? So it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, like you said before, it's very much about communication and being open and receptive, for sure, for sure. And then what final advice would you give to someone who wants to become a full time artist,

Erik Koeppel: 1:15:22

oh boy, oh boy. One thing that you just said in your your last speech that just just struck me as a point that I that I think is probably universal, universally important to everyone. And this is just a business measure. Is you use the term, I think, like undercutting the gallery, I would also consider that practice as undercutting the value of your own work. And so something that has been absolutely crucial to me, keeping these open, honest relationships with these galleries, even while selling my work at a wide variety of venues and contexts, has been I have been like, crazy about price point, stabilization by size and that. Like, if you can't do that, you're not going to have good relationships with galleries because, like, you just can't do it. Like, you can't, you can't have it be like, oh, all I have to do is go find the artist on the internet where all artists can be found now, and I can get half price, or even 75% or whatever. So like, I just don't do that. Like, I consider my prices to be the prices of a work that size, and what commission I get from what dealer or wherever that goes is nobody else's business but mine and that dealer. And there's a vast variety that artists will find in the market, and like you just have to work it out with each person that you work with. But as far as the public facing pricing of the work by size, it should be cut and dry across the board. And you'll find that if that's the case, you're you're gonna suddenly have less people that are trying to bug you about these like, Oh, do you you know? Well, do you value your own work at the price it's being sold at. And so if the answer to that question is yes, then, like, I don't see it as, like, you know, oh, this little painting is, say five, you know, say it's 5000 for this gallery. Well, that's, I see that. I don't see that as 2500 for me. Like, I just, you know, if it's a 50% gallery, like, I just see that as a$5,000 painting, and maybe it's at a 15% Gallery, and maybe it's at a 50% gallery, I'm still going to see that as a $5,000 painting across the board. And I think that is what artists should do, because that way, you know you're honest and like, you can sleep at night and you don't have to worry about, well, you know, somebody is going to go to the country and buy the painting for that, or whatever. It just makes it really cut and dry. This is the value. This is the market. You know, you do that over a long period of time, then you have collectors that expect those prices to be universal and like you build stability into your market for your work.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:51

Yes, yeah, it's important to stay consistent for sure, for sure, because I think that's one of the things a lot of artists struggle with, is pricing or thinking like, oh, well, with this gallery, it'll be this price with that gallery, this other price for truly, it should, like you said, be very, very much stable across the board, because then, you know, creates weird discrepancies for sure, for Sure.

Erik Koeppel: 1:19:18

Yeah. Added to that, you can also like, you know, before I had stabilized this so much for so long, like what you find at the beginning is like, you're going to actually find dealers that they want to do to their their contemporary, their peer, they want you to do to that other art dealer what they don't want you to do to them. And so this is, this is the hilarious thing about it is, like, one dealer might be like, oh, like, you know, I can't sell that at 5000 I can only sell it at 4000 because they're trying to build an advantage into their marketplace, and they're going to. Pressure an artist to go along with them on that with the young, innocent artists, not realizing that they're damaging their relationship with this person and with that person, and most importantly, they don't believe in their own value anymore. So it's kind of like, if you're going to sell it, just sell it where, where where it is, you know, that's, that's what I think. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:20:24

I mean, you have to stand your ground and be like, Nope, sorry, dude. It has to be 5000 if not, then, you know, it's nice to do business with you. And you know, you walk out totally, totally. And then, besides the consistency advice, do you have any other final advice for someone who wants to be a full time artist?

Erik Koeppel: 1:20:45

Yeah, more important than anything to do with marketing and business is to focus on the quality of what you do, not the marketability of of what you do. And so in the long run, and the long, long run as a human being, as an artist, like strive for the great thing that you believe in as truth, not worldly rewards. You know, like, art is not to be done for fame or for other sort of silly, flattering reasons. And like, I just think you find more success from doing something true and good,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:21:43

very wise words. And I 100% agree, because it's kind of funny how I've noticed, especially with all the painters that I've interviewed, the more the more truthful you are about your art, right and what you paint, and the more transparent you are. And of course, it works out too, with galleries too, where you know you have to be transparent, but also as an artist, if you're transparent with your work, and you focus on making it the best that you can, everything else kind of falls into place, right? Like the marketing falls into place. It becomes a little more easier to handle those things because you're, you know, like a crafts person. You're, you know, really, you know, working at your craft and the craft itself, just quality is noticeable, that that's what sells. Is quality? Yes, not always. You know, some people might not totally focus on quality because, you know, some collectors might not be too concerned with that, but fundamentally, I think that's what really matters, is that quality, because you'll find the collector that really appreciates it, or they'll find you in most cases. But yeah, yeah. And then, do you have any upcoming exhibitions that you would like to promote or announce?

Erik Koeppel: 1:22:56

I think I'll just say, you know, check out my website and like, join my newsletter and I'll, I'll always be, you know, once a month or so, I'm not gonna fill your inbox with with newsletters every day, like, every month or so, I'll put on the shows and the talks and things that I Do so awesome. And

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:21

yes, for sure. And do you mind telling us what your website is? It

Erik Koeppel: 1:23:25

is ericcold.com so if you can tell my name, which most people can't my website,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:23:35

yeah, yeah. And then I'll also include your links in the show notes as well. But yeah, well, thank you so much, Eric for this very philosophical and in depth talk. And I think this talk has been so appropriate for the kind of beautiful work that you do, which is just a treat to look at and a treat to just think deeply about the real meaning behind you know all of the beauty that we try to bring forth into the world. So thank you.

Erik Koeppel: 1:24:05

So thank you very much for having me. I appreciate

Laura Arango Baier: 1:24:07

it, of course, you.