Mark Shasha: 0:00

Truth, beauty, freedom and love. That's basically it. It's a life of pursuit. You're pursuing those things. That's the only conversation I really want to have. I want to talk about things like that. What is true, what is beautiful, what is you know? What is love? Where is love? What am I in love with and freedom. How do we help each other be free? How do we how do we expand freedom for everybody?

Laura Arango Baier: 0:30

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura Rangel Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast. We are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques on all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others creating careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. On today's episode, we sat down with Mark shacha, a vibrant, passionate artist whose life embodies the true spirit of creative pursuit, weaving together illustration, painting and storytelling with an infectious joy and unwavering commitment to artistic truth. Mark shares insights from his artistic journey, emphasizing the importance of pursuing passion and staying true to oneself as an artist, he offers valuable advice about the creative process, highlighting the need for artists to be critical of their own work and continuously seek personal growth and connection. Mark emphasizes how creativity is not just about technical skill, but about capturing the essence of life through His bohemian philosophy of pursuing truth, beauty, freedom and love throughout the conversation, Mark shares his experiences of navigating the art world, from being a starving artist to becoming a successful painter and illustrator, demonstrating that persistence and genuine passion are key to artistic success. His approach encourages artists to focus on connecting with others through their work, viewing art as a means of expressing deeper truths and human experiences. Finally, Mark tells us about his upcoming participation in the Cape Ann plein air event in October, and his plans for studio work in the summer and fall. Welcome mark to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Mark Shasha: 2:12

I'm doing great. Thank you, Laura, thank you. Yeah, of

Laura Arango Baier: 2:15

course, I'm so excited to have you because it is so fascinating to me that, of course, your personal fine art work is gorgeous, and you are someone who definitely captures the joy in your work. And then, of course, I didn't know that I had actually seen your work since I was a child, because you have, you know, the night of the moon jellies, which I definitely saw when I was a kid, and it is a gorgeous, gorgeous work, the story, the drawings, yes, of course, yeah. So I'm excited to have you

Mark Shasha: 2:50

well. Thank you very much. I didn't realize you've seen night of the moon jellies. That was a that's that book has been for those that don't know. Night of the moon jellies is a children's book that I wrote and illustrated about my A Day in the Life of working in my grandmother's hot dog stand when I was growing up in New London, Connecticut. And she had this little stand, very small, on the side, right alongside the river there, and it was, so it's waterfront. Anyway, it was fun, and I loved it. I loved my grandmother. And that was a day in the life of that, you know, of something that went on for me, and when I was seven years old somewhere over here. Give me a second. I'll see if I can find I might have it's, I'm right next to my bookshelf here. Okay, here it is, yeah, but yes, then on the bestseller list for on and off for like 30 years in New in the United States. Gorgeous. Thank you. Yeah. So what should we talk about? Are there so many things to talk about?

Laura Arango Baier: 4:03

Yeah, well, of course. I mean, I'm very, very curious about you, and it's very typical for me to want to ask this with every artist and interview, which is, when did you start to follow the path of the artist?

Mark Shasha: 4:18

Well, I mean, it's hard to kind of do the whole How did you get started thing for me, because the only thing I've ever done is art. I've only done the arts. So when I started out in the short version of a very long life of twists and turns there, I mean, I always love to draw, like most artists will start with that. They'll tell you that I used to love to draw, and in my own life as a little kid. I mean, I've had crushes when I was a little boy, and so I would do these little drawings of me being a superhero, saving my you know, the girls that I had a little crush on, they never know. They never knew this, but like, I do a little drawing of like dinosaurs coming, and I would have my cape, and I would protect them and so, and I would put their little names, like Kathy or Louise or whatever. So I started doing drawings, little stories like that when I was a kid, like six, seven years old, eight years old, and then just continued. I never grew up. I'm still, you know, drawing pictures, and I went off to art school and the whole rest. I mean, I started. I love drawing so much, and I guess I was pretty good at it. The the local newspapers had me illustrate for them when I was, like 14 years old, so I've been doing illustration and painting for almost, like 50 years. Easy, I could easily say that, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 5:50

amazing. Wow. You know it's, yeah, it is nuts. And also it's like the youthfulness that you have, right? Because just talking to you, there's a youthfulness to enjoy that I can see in you and in your work. And every

Mark Shasha: 6:06

never grew up. I never wanted to. He said, You better get like I remember one time I had a friend that had a father who, like bet, went back when I was getting out of high school, and I had to figure out what school to go to. I told him I was going to go to art school. Turned out I was a reluctant art school student. I was like, Really, I got to go to art school. I'll tell you, if you're interested, I'll get into that. But you know that my my buddy's dad said, Well, what are you going to fall back on it? That's not going to work. You can't be an artist. And I just smiled, and I thought, you know, there's really nothing else, I thought to myself, there's nothing else I'm going to do. I mean, I art is the only thing I can I see myself doing. But I thought, well, maybe I could be a singer instead, or, you know, you know, actor. I never considered a real light, like, quote, unquote, real life. I had a the last time I had a job where I got a paycheck. Ronald Reagan was president.

Laura Arango Baier: 7:09

It's been a while.

Mark Shasha: 7:11

Yeah, so did I answer? Look, I could go so far in, all over the place, but I don't want to. It's how did you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 7:20

But it's it. I find it so fascinating. Because, again, you know, just with, with that friend's parents just mentioned, like, oh, but like, what? What are you actually going to do? You know, I feel like that's something a lot of us artists get, and especially, you know, before, right? I feel like before the internet really took off, right? Because now we're in, we're in a time period where it is feasible to be a working artist right back then, it was like, Oh, you're gonna starve, right? But, of course, I'm sure you didn't. And many other artists who were able to do it, I

Mark Shasha: 7:51

was a starving artist for sure. Okay, homeless for a couple of nights. I mean, way back when I got out of art school, I, you know, I had I when I was in art school, I, gosh, I went to the Rhode Island School of Design, and I had some amazing teachers. I mean, there were teachers all over the place, great, great people like Chris Van alsburg was one of my teachers. Kind of a bit of a mentor in the end. Chris Van ellsburg, for those that don't know, wrote The Polar Express, Jumanji children's books like that. And, you know, I had wanted to be so I wanted I just look, I just had to do art stuff. I had to paint or make movies or act or draw or something. And when I got out of art school, I mean, I didn't really know how to make a living at any though that was all general. So I started, you know, before I got the illustration, sort of little spot jobs, Boston Phoenix and the Boston Globe and newspapers and magazines like that. I used to do little spot illustrations before I did all that. I mean, I was just like waiting tables and trying to get by, and I used to smoke a lot of cigarettes because I had no money, and cigarettes kill your taste buds, so you don't you're it kills your appetite, so you don't get hungry. I mean, I smoked so I wouldn't have to be so I wouldn't be hungry. I worked in restaurants, because that's where the food was, and I was a terrible waiter. I got fired from every waiter job I had. I was really bad at it, because I'm a daydreamer, and people would look at me like, Well, why aren't you going to that table? And I was trying to figure out, how do you paint that color green on that tree up there? You know? I mean, I'm just, you know, that's fascinating. I mean, there was one night I, like I said, I when I moved to Boston, I had no money. I didn't come from a family that, you know, gave me money. I just My father was a lawyer, but he wasn't. Didn't have a lot of like, I was on my own when I went off to Boston, and I lived pretty hand to mouth, absolutely and more often, didn't have enough money for rent. And back in the 1980s we're talking about the 1980s things were cheaper then, but so, like, you didn't have to make as much money to get by. But I just I never stopped drawing. I was always drawing. During that time, I had an apartment on Newbury Street, which people think of as, Oh, what a rich part of town to be a starving artist, really? Yeah. Well, it's the Rodeo Drive of new of Boston, but there was, in those days, in the 1980s a poor end of the street. And the poor end was the part near Mass Ave and all my buddies were music people, Berkeley College of Music. And you know, some who went on to great fame. But you know, I had to be around artists. That was my that was those were my people. And when I went into my few office jobs, oh my god, I hated it. I was fired from those jobs. I was no good at it. I can't I'm a daydreamer. I look out the window. I'm thinking up stories. I'm thinking about what to paint or draw all the time. It's nuts. Like I said, I never Laura, yeah, but

Laura Arango Baier: 11:21

that's great. I think, you know, there's something, oh, if you can't help yourself in that sense, right? Where, like it, your soul just has to breathe through this medium, whether it's acting, singing, dancing, creating paintings, right? Why stifle it? You know, like there is where. There's a will, there's a way, of course, I mean, and you did try the practical way, and of course, the practical way does have benefits. I mean, it helps you have some money, so you have food on the table, at least, and then you have money for supplies. Um, but the fact that you didn't give us by, yeah, make a living, the fact that you didn't give us, but, you know, all the difficulties, is amazing.

Mark Shasha: 12:02

Well, I never, you know what it is. I also laughed a lot. I mean, I laughed at my poverty. We, I had buddies. We were all a bunch of starving artists. And, you know, in those days, if you turn the lights off in a room, you know, we you could hear the roaches like going into the trash. You could hear him like, we would just laugh. We're like, oh my god, we're so poor, and we just had, you know, but I listen, I never, it never occurred to me to to not draw and paint and and pursue these things. I'm a very expressive person, so I'm looking for ways to express my feelings about things and to connect with other people. I mean, I think that a lot of people give up on painting or art because they can't make money at it. But you know, if you if your your priority is to connect to other people. You know the money part, it either comes or it doesn't, but at least you're happy because you're connecting to people, and you're laughing at your life, and because you can't take things too seriously, you can't it's too many wild cards in this in this world.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:15

Yeah, yeah. And again, I think that brings back that vision that I definitely see in your work where it's just this pure happiness or joy or admiration for the world around you. And I think I could definitely, I could definitely see you bring that into your just your view in general. And actually, that is the other thing that I wanted to discuss. Because last time we spoke, you mentioned the I want to call them the Bohemian values, and I want to discuss them a little bit more with

Mark Shasha: 13:42

you, right? Well, one of the things I learned I didn't know that I live by the Bohemian way until, oh yeah, I mean, me and my buddies. We joke that were just poor Bohemians in those days. But I saw a production of Moulin Rouge, which one of the greatest productions I ever saw in New York, and it summed up exactly, and I hadn't heard it in a long time, but the Bohemian way of life, okay, is basically, it's not a religion, it's not that serious, but it's a loose kind of thing. It's truth, beauty, freedom and love. That's basically it. You're looking for truth, for your interprets. It's a life of pursuit. You're pursuing those things. You're pursuing love, truth, beauty and freedom. And, you know, it's a very interesting thing. I as soon as I heard that, I mean, yeah, that's me. That's my life. That's what I've been doing. I mean, you fall in love and you fall in love again. You fall in love again. You fall in love with, and I'm not just talking about people, but places. You fall in love with ideas. You fall in love with things you want to try. You know, little journeys that you go on and you. Uh, you fall in love with a certain way of life here and there. You know, when I was a writer and illustrator of children's books, I loved the life that I was living at that time, but it was fleeting. I didn't stay in that publishing world forever, but I was in love with that world. So the freedom, and that's another one that's important. I mean, I don't know how you can really live your life without freedom. We've gotta be free somehow, to be to carry on. And that's a freedom to me, might not be the same thing as freedom to you. So that's why this isn't some kind of dogmatic thing. It's it's loose. You know, everything that's beautiful is not true. Everything that's true is not beautiful. So there's a conversation to be had. So it's, it's a way of living. It's a way of pursuing things that are and by the way, I mean, that's the only conversation I really want to have. I want to talk about things like that. What is true, what is beautiful, what is you know? What is love? Where is love? What am I in love with? And freedom. How do we help each other be free? How do we how do we expand freedom for everybody?

Laura Arango Baier: 16:09

You know? Yeah, totally. And it's fascinating, because I feel like, you know, and I don't know if maybe you've experienced this. Will you paint right where? When you're working on a painting, right, and you see this, this beautiful thing that you want to create or recreate, if it's, you know, a beautiful place or a beautiful person or something, there's something beyond capturing them, right? Like you're, yeah, you can literally paint them as they are, but there's, I feel like there's something beyond that when you paint them, that I think goes much deeper than just, oh yes, it's this person exactly as they are. It's no it's the truth of who they are. Right? Is the truth that I see of them, that I'm attempting to capture in my work. You know,

Mark Shasha: 16:57

absolutely, that's the, that's the holy grail of it all, you know, trying to get. You know, as the Allman Brothers used to say, before they got on stage, they Greg almond used to say, I just want to hit the note. He didn't mean musically, just hit the note. He meant hit the big note. Like, connect get, like, get in the zone and connect with the audience in that way, in so that it's a bigger, deeper thing, yeah, and it's true with painting. It's true with when you're on the stage, like I've played many things on stages. I've a lot of characters, lot of roles, and when you're trying to take the art form to a place where you're really, know, you're connecting with people. You know, there's, there's nothing like that. You know, I played a Atticus Finch and To Kill a Mockingbird for a few months back in few years ago. And it was the most exciting thing to be on stage, to become Atticus Finch, defending that black guy who was wrongly accused of a crime and IT people in the audience came up to me afterwards and said they forgot where they were. They didn't realize they forgot they were actually it felt so real to them. Well, how much better can it get than that? You're that's that thing that you just were talking about. That's that other thing, that extra thing. You're not just acting, but you're like, you're becoming the thing. And when a painting brings somebody to tears, because that moves them so much. That's not the flower Bush, you know, that's not like the ripple on the water alone. There's something else connecting. And, you know, I live for that. That's what I'm that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to get better and better at connecting, you know, people to that my, you know, my work, I wanted to do that to people I wanted to connect. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:07

yeah. And actually, you know that that does make me wonder, what is it that you personally seek for, like, when you're in, let's say you're randomly walking, and maybe you see a beautiful place, what is it that you that really draws you to want to paint something. I love that question. I

Mark Shasha: 19:28

don't know. I have no idea. I don't know why, where it comes from. You know, I've been listening, I've been reading this book by a guy named Goldman who talks about his years in Hollywood. And he's he was a screenwriter. He was a screenwriter for Bucha, see, and Sundance Kid and the state like, not this thing, but some of the great movies. And he says, nobody in Hollywood knows what works. They don't know. If a producer tells you they know what's going to work, they don't know. And. Uh, actors tell you what's going to work. They don't know. You don't know until it's all together and it's up there. And I kind of feel that way about painting. You don't know. I don't know what. Why? Like, this is one of the weird, many of the there's one of the weird things. I don't know why. When I walk the beaches, and I walk a lot of beaches. I live in New England. I'm in a very idyllic little New England town. When I walk the beaches, and I see the dunes, I look at those shadows, those little organic shapes, and then I see the water beyond. I don't know why I want that. Why do what is it that's drawing me into that? I could think of some things, I think it's, you know, sometimes it's maybe the angle of the light or the angle of something will remind me of personal life experiences. It'll remind me of when I was a kid, or remind me of when I was a teenager, or remind me of that time I took that long walk on some beach somewhere else. Or it might not remind me of a beach memory at all. It might be remind me of a song, and the song will play in my head, and the song will be something from a ski trip, but I'll have an emotional reaction. I think a lot of what I do is I trust my guts. I trust my my trust my senses. Something is speaking to me. I mean, one of the things, well, I have a lot of stickers on the back of my car, because when I get out of a shopping like, if I get out of a store and I got to find my car, I can never find my car because it's because I used to have this problem, because I can't tell one car from another. I'm not one of those people that understands cars. Yes, the white car is not mine, but anything, any dark colored car, I might walk into it, I have a blind spot about cars I don't know, and so I put stickers on my car so I can see my car. So when I get out of the shopping go get my groceries, I can find my car because I've been walking into the wrong people's cars for years. I know that sounds crazy and I but I have a bumper sticker that says I break for beauty, and that bumper sticker is really how I go about my day. If I see something beautiful, I just trust myself. There's something here. I don't know what it is. I'm going to stop and I'm going to paint it. I'm going to look at it. I'm gonna study it. What's going on here? And, you know, there might be a snow scene. It might be, oh, I might be at the beach. I might be at a near cafes. I don't know. Something speaks to something speaks to me, and I trust that, and I go with it,

Laura Arango Baier: 22:42

yeah, yeah. And I think you bring up something that's very important. I think that I believe a lot of artists have naturally and can develop it, which is that inner voice, right, that intuition, that vision, right, where you see the beauty around you, and you can find it right. I think a lot of people who don't really seem to have that natural perspective might struggle to see the beauty in the everyday. But I feel like for a lot of artists, we are naturally drawn to like you just said, the light is just hitting that tree in that specific angle, and it's making the leaves look like this, and the color of the sky right now is it's just intoxicating. I have to look at I have to capture it right and, and I'm very much, I totally, really, I'm very much a stop and smell the roses type of person, because I think that's something that we're missing, or are starting to miss more, which I think there is actually a bit of a counterculture movement now where people are slowing down because they're tired of the sudden increase in speed and everything with like technology, which again reinforces the importance of the arts and the importance of stopping for beauty like you do, right, the capturing of that, being In the moment again and not being worried about what's going to happen tomorrow. Like, yes, it's important to keep in mind what you got to do tomorrow, but at the same time, don't let it rule your life, right? Break for

Mark Shasha: 24:10

beauty, right? Well, I think this gets a little bit back to what I was saying before about truth and beauty sometimes, you know, and it also depends on what mood you're in. You don't you're not always in the same mood, right? So one day you'll go out and something will appear very beautiful to you, and then another day it won't seem beautiful, it'll seem but it may still speak the truth. There might be a truth that's attracting you. You know, this might not be beautiful exactly, but it's definitely the truth. And you kind of linger on that, and, yeah, I'd be stopping, as you say, people, I think, are trying to always find what's they're always people are always struggling, isn't it? Constant struggle. Technology gives us so much, like here we are talking miles and miles away from you. Each other this. Thank you, technology, right? Technology makes this possible. But the same technology, you can get caught in a doom loop with the Instagram or, you know, these reels where everything is bad and it's only showing you the bad stuff. You got to get away from that and tick tock and stuff, and people are addicted. And these are the technology problems that we are facing are enormous, but we do have to remember that you can't build your life. You shouldn't be scaring yourself to death. You know, you got to go out and look for the beautiful things. Look for the things that are true. Look for, you know, and care. You can't help but care, right? So I don't know, I you've stirred up a lot of stuff there.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:55

Yeah, it's definitely a deep thing. Yeah,

Mark Shasha: 25:58

so much to talk about on that. I mean, you know, I, here's the thing I this is what I was going to say as you, you you mentioned this thing, you know, like we have to stop and see the beauty. But, you know, there's a lot of just and this, okay, I'm going to mention that Goldman book again about screenwriting. I can't remember the title. I'm enjoying the hell out of this book. But he talks about how some movies are like typically. Movies deal with all kinds of complicated things, and then there are comic book movies. And he and he wrote this in the 1980s this book, but I found this so fascinating. His comment about comic book movies, comic book movies are like Star Wars and that sort of thing, where it's a fantasy about what we would like life to be like. It's not what life is like. It's what we would aspire like Star Trek. It's what light we would like life to be like. But he said, you know, real other movies, that deal with more important things, sometimes deal with the problem of death and loss. And he said the scariest, even though you think of Bambi as an animated you know, he it's not a comic book movie, because he said the scariest thing that he ever heard in a movie was the line when bambi's mother says, After the fire starts in the forest and there's the sound of gunshots, she says to Bambi, man has entered the forest, and this is not a fantasy. This is about real life. And then a few moments later, bamby, his mother, is shot. You know, I think that getting back to what you said, going out and looking for the beauty in life, very important to do I try to be aware. Am I, you know, what am I? What? What is my mood? Am I? Am I in the mood to help guide us into a fantasy. Do I want to paint a pretty picture for its own sake? You know, usually not. I'm looking for the truth in it. I'm looking for that part of it, which is kind of saying, you know, this is about life and death. It's about, there are limited time here, and let's, you know, let's not gloss over that. I don't know. Oh, my God, I'm

Laura Arango Baier: 28:23

so sorry. No, you're good. You're good. Because, Laura, well, it just brings up, really, you know, because, of course, there is that, like, classical la de da beauty of like, Oh, look at this beautiful thing, which is fine, right? Beauty for beauty sake. But then there's, you know, things from the past, right? Kind of like, and we still do them today, which is like the paintings of still lifes, of flowers or of perishables, right, reminding us of the inevitability of their demise, right? There are going to rot. They are going to perish. They are perishables. And they are reminding us like they're this is a moment in time that we're capturing, and it is a stark reminder of both, you know, that beauty and that death that you mentioned, right? That that I would say is also, you know, a non superhero comic book painting, right? In that sense, which, again, it goes beyond just like, Oh, look at this beautiful thing. It's more like, Wow. This is representative of the cycles of life that we're experiencing, right? Every moment is totally new. You can see a sunset at the beach, and it's not the same sunset as the one before or the one tomorrow, right? It's totally new. And as artists, of course, we're trying to catch that, right?

Mark Shasha: 29:43

Well, I mean, the great artist is so people didn't have any regard for him in his time. Well, there they did, but they, they didn't they. I'm talking about Andrew Wyeth. Okay, everybody loves him, or hates him, or whatever. But, you know, I love Andrew Wyeth. I love i. He gets right into that. He gets into death. He but it's not like, oh, let's paint it. He did paint death, but he also painted, I'll give you an illustration of what I'm talking about. I don't have the picture with me, but try to picture. Andrew Wyeth did this drawing, his artwork. This painting, he used egg tempera, and it was not a lot of color. It's very spare. It's a barn window. You're in a barn, you're looking the window. There's the outside and the inside, and there's like a bowl. There's a little a basket next to it, and there's no people in it. But there's something so damn powerful about that painting. Yeah, it's just, it's just, I, you know, and he did so many like this. I just thought of my grandmother. I thought of my my life. I thought of people I knew, aunts, uncles, people who lived on farms long ago, who are gone, who this was their world. He it wasn't just the detail, the placement. I can't put it into words. That's why it's a painting, right? But it had, it had life and death, and he was no comic book painter, not Andrew Wyeth. People think of him as pretty pictures. Sometimes they're like, Well, no no, no, no. You got to really look at Andrew Wyeth. And I think as I get older, and I've been around for a long time, people artists like Andrew Wyeth speak to me so strongly. I mean, you see the passage of time in his or in his work, he definitely hits the frickin note. He hits it. And Norman Rockwell too, in some of them, you know, like, some of them are corny, but a lot of the great illustrators, there was that sort of, you know, oh well, it's just illustration. It's not really fine art and all this nonsense. And we can get into that. But I think things can rise. They can rise to the level of fine art. And Laura, I should, you know, clarify this, because I think a lot of people don't know this fine art. When we say fine art, we're not talking about fine like finery. Oh, it's so fine. That's not what the word means. Fine in the case of fine art, comes from the root of the Latin word theme. Okay, that's the root of it, which is end in and of itself. So unlike so everything in a piece of fine art has to live within the frame. It has to live on its own, if you will. It doesn't refer to it like when I illustrated children's books, my illustrated art. Those were illustrations, not fine art. They were meant to illustrate a book, so they were in the service to another cause. When you built, when you make a coffee cup, you know, this is industrial design, maybe, or pottery. It is an art form, and it can rise to the level of fine art, but it is a utilitarian art that's not a knock on it. You get it, yes, it's not a knock to say, Oh well, it's just illustration. Or, you know, it's just, it's a cert, it's in the service. It is an art form in the service of another art form, and that's, that's what's going on there. Fine Art, though, it has to live within the frame. It like it has to, if it's going to ask a question, it has to propose its own answers. It has to, you know, it's all in there. Is that clear?

Laura Arango Baier: 33:36

Yeah, that is so poetically stated. If you've been enjoying the podcast and also want to be able to ask our guests live questions, then you might want to join our monthly BoldBrush live webinars where our guest artists discuss marketing tips, share inspiring stories and answer your burning questions in real life, whether you're a seasoned painter or just starting your creative journey, this is your chance to connect, learn and spark new ideas, and whether you're stuck on a canvas or building your creative business, this is where breakthroughs happen. Don't miss out. Ignite your passion and transform your art practice by joining us. Our next BoldBrush Live Webinar is coming up on August 14, with our special guest, Diego Glazer. You can find the sign up link in the show notes at BoldBrush, we inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists, we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. And if you believe that too, sign up completely free@boldbrushshow.com that's B, O, L, d, b, r, U, S, H show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by Faso. Now more than ever, it's crucial to have a website when. An artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special ink faso.com forward slash podcast, you can make that come true and also get over 50% off your first year on your artist website. Yes, that's basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal, considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile, friendly, e commerce, print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won't get with our competitor. The Art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step, guides on what you should be doing today right now, in order to get your artwork out there and seeing by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link, faso.com, forward slash podcast. That's F, A, S, o.com, forward slash podcast. And I think you know what it really reminds me of, is theater, because, you know, the theater frames an entire story, right? You want a scene to have everything you need to tell the story, which I think that's what's really interesting, too, because that really differentiates the types of paintings that you see today, which are very much influenced by the camera. And that's totally fine, but if you look at paintings from before the camera, they're much more complete, right? They're much more a setting, a story, but it's, it's implicit and explicit. Of course, you have both. But then also there's like, it encompasses not just the story, but like you said, that life and death in one place, that's, that's the beauty, and to also, I agree with you, with Andrew Wyatt, there's this beautiful wistfulness in his work. It's melancholic, but it's beautiful, right? It's, I don't know if it's again, like as we experience life, and we, you know, go through the years, there's a bunch of realization,

Mark Shasha: 37:02

you know truth, truths we can believe. You know, something can be so true that it becomes beautiful. You know, it's just. And I think the, you know, we don't have a lot of truth in our common right now. We are. People use the word authenticity. You know, I want something authentic. I want the real thing. You know, I'm an old hippie. Okay, so I, in the good sense, I was never into the drug stuff, but I definitely, you know, I do think first thought, best thought, typically like, Don't go, don't carry on to the second thought. Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes it's good to just trust your first thought, because it tends to be the truest thought. You know. You know, if you think, if you experience something, you get that first impression of something, sometimes that's the true it's not always, but you know, sometimes that's the real thing. And we live in an age where a lot or authenticity is hard to find, because we have this gets back to the technology. I love the technology, okay? I love being able to talk with you from this distance. Technology makes that happen, but it's easy to fake stuff. It's so easy and authentic we yearn for it. We're human beings. We're looking for the we don't want to. We don't want to play in the in the sandbox of pretend crap. We don't we don't want to play in that sandbox for too long. Sometimes it's fun, you know, but once in a while, you need the truth to get you by. You get, well, what's true here? And I think artists who dismiss that are making a mistake.

Laura Arango Baier: 38:51

Yeah, totally. And you know what? What that also reminds me of, which is so interesting too, because in some forms, and this is a challenge that I guess I'll pose to in some ways, some paintings lie, but by lying, they expose truth, right? And that's also what you do as an actor, right? You're pretending to be someone else, and you have different motivations and a different everything, but you're expressing a truth through that which is very poetic and beautiful. You know?

Mark Shasha: 39:23

Well, it's very profound, isn't it? I mean, we have to sometimes bend things to get to the to express the truth. I mean, that's a whole conversation all by itself, man, whole thing. Because, yeah, how do you, how do you play that game without, you know, telling lies and you don't the objective is the truth. So how do we do that? And it, you know, you really set me off with that one. I.

Laura Arango Baier: 40:00

It's fascinating.

Mark Shasha: 40:01

Yeah, well, this is the thing that I love about art, is that the conversation, it's all about connecting and conversation. You know, we have these thoughts, what's true, what's beautiful, what's the honest way to do this or that, and and that's for some people that all sounds very esoteric, because, as we may have talked before. There are sellers and there are showers, right? A lot of artists just want to please the and I'm not going to knock it. Listen, I was one of those people. I mean, I still could be that one of those people. Sometimes I don't, I don't, it doesn't come naturally to me. But you know, if you're painting, if you're doing things like you're painting pets, and that's what you do. Somebody comes to you as well, will you paint my dog? I can't do that, but, I mean, I tried, but there are people who can do that, and I think that's wonderful. But what they'll do is they'll paint the pet. They'll say, Oh, that's a wonderful picture of, you know, Sandy. I love my dog, Sandy. And this is beautiful painting of Sandy. And then they sell that painting, you know? And it's all about generating more sales. Tell me more about who do you know, who else do you know as pets? Who might want a painting of a pet? You know, a lot of those artists I've seen can raise that to magnet. They do magnificent commissions that way. I have never been one of those people. I'm no I'm no good at trying to figure out, what does another person want in this painting? Like, what do you see in your dog? What you see in your dog might be very different than what I'm seeing. And I don't see that, you know, I don't know what you see in this thing, you know, don't ask me to paint your Chihuahua, because I hate chihuahuas, right? I don't want to. I'm sure there are nice chihuahuas not knocking not, you know, but I tend to be a shower. I like to paint something that means a lot to me. And then I want a lot of people to see the painting. I don't want to sell it right away. I want people to see it. And that's why I'm in so many shows. I try to do as many as I can, because I want people to come and see the work. And that's important to me. That's more important than selling it. So I tend to price my paintings a little bit so that they they won't sell right away.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:26

It's interesting.

Mark Shasha: 42:27

Wouldn't make much my galleries unhappy, but, you know, they understand. We've had this conversation. It's amazing how people who really love art will listen to you and they'll understand and my galleries understand this, but, you know, they're in the business of selling, and that's what they care about. So hopefully we work out a nice little arrangement. But,

Laura Arango Baier: 42:52

yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting, because, of course, oh, there's that balance for like, you, of course, need money, yeah, sell work, but then at the same time, there's that, well, I also don't want to lose my personal voice, right? Like, if you're someone who's fine with, you know, selling, like you said, portraits, that's awesome. Great. If that makes you fulfilled and happy, great. Oh, if it doesn't,

Mark Shasha: 43:19

my hat is off to you. It's not an easy thing to do, by the way. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 43:23

yeah. It's not. I think a general commissions are some of the hardest things to do as an artist because of that, because there's an element of, well, there's, there's now two people involved, right? There's the buyer and the seller, sort of situation, like you said, the sellers. But then, if you're shower like you it's interesting to be like, Okay, I'll have, like, a painting, and I'm just gonna price a little more, because maybe, you know, on the one hand, it won't sell this quickly, but on the other hand, the person who truly does want it won't care about the price necessarily. They'll get it, you know, yeah, yeah.

Mark Shasha: 43:59

That happens to be an incidental thing, you know, like, when you're showing your work, and you really care about showing your work, you put that little bit of price a little higher. I mean, that's really an educational moment for yourself as a painter, because if the painting doesn't sell ever, and nobody wants it, you know, it's, I think, you know, it's good to look at your work and be a good critic. I mean, my problem with a lot of art that we see these days is the artist is not a very good critic of their own work. And if you're not a good critic of your own work, you can get yourself into a real trap by increasing your prices before their time. You really have to, you have to. It's a bit of a get. It's a there's an there's an art to this, if you will, like you, your art, your paintings, have to be you've got to be a good critic of your work. I'm. If you're if you put something up on a wall and it's it's really not and it really doesn't work, and you put a high price on it, then what are you showing you're still a shower. You're still a shower. You're showing your work. But what are you showing you're showing something that's not working, and that becomes the new you, that's you. That's on you. If you're a painter that doesn't know your work isn't working and you're putting big prices on it, you're screwing yourself up. So you got to make sure your work is working. A lot of critics, and I'll do this quick review, a lot of what I learned in at the Rhode Island School of Design, one of the greatest things I learned was how to critique myself, how to be a good critic. I understand that. Let's go through it. You don't talk about what you love or what you don't love when you're looking at artwork. You don't say, Gee, I really love the way you painted this pink tree, no, because that's about you and what you love. That's not about the art. Oh, well, you broke the rules. The rules say you can't put something in the middle of a painting like that. Okay, well, now we're back to you. It's not about the art. It's about you don't like. The rules have been broken. Oh well, this is the right way to do it, and this is the wrong way you did it, the wrong way. Again, that is not about work. That's about how you feel, about whether and by the way, you're closing the book, you're saying that's the wrong way, right? You say, this is ugly, that's beautiful. Again, you're making it's about you and your judgment alone, and it's final, right? But if you say, does this work? If that's the question, you ask yourself, does it work? And then you open your mind to maybe there's parts of this painting that don't work. It's not a personal attack. Nobody should cry about this. Nobody should be in tears. Nobody said you're wrong, because you might be right. But why doesn't it work? And it's go, always go back to the painting. What's wrong with the painting and this, and when you talk about what's not working in a painting, and if the artist is listening, then we the artist can begin their journey on learning how to critique themselves, and that's like, one of the most important things to be an artist. I mean, I don't know about success, and I'm not talking about money, I'm just talking about how to be a better artist. You got to learn to critique

Laura Arango Baier: 47:39

yourself. Yeah, totally. And in some way, you are also talking about how to make money, because the foundation is the work itself, right? If you have good work, then it's a lot easier to actually make a profit from it, because you have good work and you're you have the ability to actually credit, like, critique it, take it to take it to a gallery. The gallery can also look at it and be like, Oh, yes, this is beautiful, and we agree, like, we'll take you in, right? So in some way, it is the foundation for being able to make money.

Mark Shasha: 48:10

You're interested, yeah. I think what it is is, if you're a good critic of your work, your work should get better and better, and if you keep getting better and better, you should attract people who want your work. Unfortunately, it doesn't always go that way, because people, because it's a bumpy road, very bumpy road. You might not learn how to critique yourself until late in life. And I think that's that's the sad thing, like, if you sell a bunch of paintings and you make a lot of money, but you don't know why they that, why that happened, and why they were good, or why they worked, you're probably not going to be keeping up that same you know your work. It may not continue to work. It might you could easily fall off a cliff and not know where you are. This gets back to the truth, you know, you'll be honest with yourself all the time. Is my work? Does this not work? Or does it work? You know,

Laura Arango Baier: 49:16

yeah, yeah. And that speaks to the dual nature of being an artist, which is very interesting, because you're looking at your work, right and trying to find that truth without realizing that you need to find how you're lying to yourself too, right? How you just said, if you're not able to see objectively what's wrong with your work, you are lying to yourself as well, which is really

Mark Shasha: 49:41

you're gonna see. Here's the thing, here's the catch, right? You can express yourself, very, very okay, I'm in a really bad mood, right? And I'm going to take paint, I'm just going to throw it at the canvas. That's the truth, that's how I feel. That's what it is. Oh, here's some bright red and I throw that at the canvas. You know what? I'm. It might work, that painting might work, but it might not. And, and, but you have to know, have I just expressed myself to myself, for myself, or have I expressed myself in a way that's going to connect to other people? Am I forming connections? This gets back to the first thing we were talking about. I'm all about connecting to people. That's why I like to do group critique. I like a group critique. I think you have to sit with other people who are like minded as artists, who are serious. You have to put your painting on the wall, and you have to ask the entire group of people, does this work? Does it work? And when they say, Well, you know what, this part works, but maybe that's not working, then you're you have to be as interested in that as the critique. And you have to ask yourself, well, why isn't it working? Why isn't that working? And, man, when you get down that lane, and you start doing this with with other artists, you can really learn a lot about whether you're connecting again. There's nothing wrong with the first scenario where the guy says I'm mad and or I'm happy and I feel loved. So I'm going to just paint a lot of hearts today, and I'm going to put it on a canvas. Nobody in the world is obligated to look at that and say, I want to buy that. And nobody in the world is obligated to look at it and connect to it. You just did something for you, which is fine, but you know this thing that you and I are now talking about, we're talking about a life in art, again, the pursuit is the truth. What's the truth? Here? I want to know the truth about myself as much as I want to know about the truth of how this is reading in the room. You know, it's all about the pursuit of it. I kind of wonder, like I was saying before. I mean, I'm not sure we ever get to the truth. I mean, you just pursue it. The point is to pursue it. You know. You know. And I know when someone is pursuing bullshit, we know that you're pursuing a BS plan. Congratulations. I can see it. It's transparent. It's BS and i Everyone knows it well. I don't admire that, but if somebody's pursuing the truth that is so much at a more edifying, you know, I you might not arrive there, and I may not arrive there, but at least you're trying, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:36

yeah, totally, totally. And it reminds me of a quote that I really love, which is that the journey is the destination. Yeah, because we're never gonna like you said, We're never gonna reach it. We can only ever really approximate as much as we can like that. You know, the exponential line that never quite touches the X axis. You know, just right, never gonna get there, but it tries. And I feel like that's, that's, I agree the pursuit is truth. That is,

Mark Shasha: 53:04

yeah. It's, yeah, just go look, seek it. And I'm not going to say Seek, and you shall find. I'll but seek, and you shall enjoy the journey. You know, it's a happy, I think it's a happy journey that way. You know, it's, it's always nice to have these little light bulb moments. I mean, so not everybody loves that, you know, not everybody likes the excitement of a new idea, and they don't like that's upsetting, you know, like, oh, well, wait a minute. I used to believe this. Now I believe that. And I think every artist is on this journey of like, well, you know, I look back at my work from the last five years and dammit, What a load of crap that turned out to be. What was I thinking? Right? Well, guess what? You're better off for having that light bulb go off and to be aware. Then if you that doesn't happen, you're better off with that let that happen, go through that pain, and look at your work with some critical eye,

Laura Arango Baier: 54:05

yeah, yeah. There's a sense of, I mean, if you're pursuing truth, right, and you look at your work in hindsight, there should be a feeling of, wow, I've grown so much, right? I've, you know, learned so much more about these things I didn't perceive at the beginning visually, right? Because, of course, our training as artists isn't just how to paint, it's how to see primarily. So when you look at old work, it's like, oh, man, I didn't see that, and now I can totally see it. You know? You

Mark Shasha: 54:34

know, what's funny about this conversation is that I do a lot of these plein air events around the country, and I love these plein air events because I get to sit around and talk to artists, because we're all like. These plein air events last about, you know, a week or two weeks, and at the end of it, we have a great big party, and we bring, you know, they bring buyers in and stuff, but it's the, those are the times I treasure is to sit around and talk about this stuff that you and I. Were talking about, and we'll just like go, we into the wee hours of the night with a glass of wine or beer or something, and just talk forever about, you know, how to, you know the pursuit of art, and you know all these aspects, it's really, I love it. I kind of love it too much. Am I loving it too much? Maybe I am. I

Laura Arango Baier: 55:19

don't know no such thing. No such thing. Oh, there's no such thing. I think of anything. I think of anything people don't express their love enough like that, honest love. So I think I would, I definitely celebrate you for doing that, because it's, it's great. It's great to be around people like you, or like how you mentioned, you know, the other artists who are also, like, very excited about life, or excited about, I don't know, the specific color of the sunset that day, or the specific color of the ocean on that day, which I think is, there's nothing nicer than looking at the different world life. You know,

Mark Shasha: 55:58

I agree. And I think the thing, here's the thing, I think a lot of people want to be artists, or they think they want to be artists because they want to be free. You know, that's what they really want. And so they see artists and they're like, Oh, you're so free, you're so you do what you want. You make your own rules, you make your own and all of that is true, but the hard part is, you know, living the life of a gambler. We don't really know how any of this is going to go. You know, you don't know whether you're going to make a living at it. You don't know whether it'll work. I mean, I remember going up and down the streets in New York City when I was looking for a publisher, knocking on publisher doors. Used to be able to do that way back in the night, or late 80s, early 1990s when I was trying to get my buck books published. And I would just knock on the door, I'd have my portfolio, and I'd say I'd go up and down Madison Avenue, because that's where all the publishers were, you know, far Strauss and Drew and little brown, little browns in Boston. But you know, like I just, I knock on the door, I don't want to, I want to go come in and talk to the art director. I want to show my I want to show my work. And they'd say, Well, do you have an appointment? I'd say, No, I don't, but I'm here. And you know, they'd make a little room, and you'd walk in and they say, well, I'll give you five minutes. And you know, you show your portfolio in those days, of course, long before computers, there were no JPEGs. You had to carry your own artwork in actual artwork and show it to the art director. And, you know, I got lucky. Art directors would see it. They'd say, I really like your work. You know, maybe we could do a book someday. I don't know, we'll see and then you double down and you send photographs of your latest idea and, and that's how I got Simon and Schuster to publish my first book. I mean, the funniest thing is that people would come up to me and say, How did you get an agent? How did you get your book published? Oh, my God, you have a bestseller. What happened? How did you do? I didn't have an agent. I still don't. I never had one, and they never could believe this story. But you know, you have to believe in yourself. You have to, you have to be willing and try stuff.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:06

Yeah, you know that really, it's very inspiring, and it reminds me of a quote that I like in Spanish, actually, but I'm going to translate it, and it's the world belongs to the people who dare to do it. Yeah, like, you just have to. There are so many things in life that will put fear in your heart and will say, Don't do that. Have a backup plan. And that's fine. You can't have a backup plan, but you won't know if things could go right if you don't even try right. It's the whole like, if you never ask, the answer is always no. So there's, there's, I feel like that's the soul of, you know, the entrepreneurial artist, I guess,

Mark Shasha: 58:45

yeah, I think also, I mean, what incur I think about, why was I that way? Why was I so fearless? I was totally fearless. I'm telling you, I was totally I had no fear. I would call anyone I would knock on any door I was and I didn't. I wasn't scared. I felt like, Wait till you see what I'm doing. Wait till you see what I've got. Then you'll then you can say no, but you're not going to say no to me. You're not. I was so confident. Oh my god. And this may be a slightly inappropriate thing to say, but I also found I was I fall in love very easy, and I fell in love with a lot of you know girls in those days, and I felt that the more courage I had, the more my girlfriends loved what I was doing, Like they've loved that so it encouraged. They encouraged me. So they'd be like, Well, Mark, you know what you're trying good for you. You know they were my best friends. And I think what I'm trying to say is it's, I guess we should surround ourselves with people who look at you and and like you and. And feel that you are a nice person and they don't want to backstab you, don't, don't hang out with people who give you bad energy, you know, stay with the people who avoid the toxic people. They're out there. And I think that's another important thing to say, is that if you're with people who believe in you. It's easier for you, you know, maybe to believe in yourself a little bit

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:24

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've had so many guests on the podcast too, who talk about how, like, Oh, my wife is so amazing. It's thanks to her that I was able to pull this off and continue my career as an artist. Or, Oh, my husband, he helps me with the sales aspect. Or, Oh, I couldn't have done this, maybe even without the support of my family or my close friends who saw me, you know, trying to make this work. And I really want to believe in myself, you know, having that extra voice of comfort to say, just go for it is, I think it's indispensable. And again, that brings it back to the word that you kept saying, which is connection, right? Which is such an important thing?

Mark Shasha: 1:01:03

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we connect. I think it's a natural thing. People want to connect. They want to. We all do. It's a human need, right? And artists help us do that. It's, I mean, that's what artists, if you think about it, think about art. And I mean people, you say to me, Well, what are you going to do with art? Jesus? I mean, well, look around you. Everything in your life is designed. Everything the desk, the house you live in, an architect did it, the cups that you carry, somebody designs them. When you go to the hospital, there's, there's, there's all kinds of medical equipment that's been designed. Designers all throughout society don't diminish what arts can do. The arts are the arts are all around you, pal. They're freaking everywhere. They're in the book. They're in the way the book was designed. How about the writing, the literature? It's all around you. You turn on TV, every damn scene, every scene, there's a storyboard behind it. Somebody had to draw that out. Everything you're watching on TV. The only area where I don't see a lot of art is in sports, because that's a certain kind art form of its own. But, you know, like, but that's fine. There's, there is some art and sports. Of course, there is, but yeah, my point being, yeah, it's connection. We're connecting all the time, and we use some kind of art form, whether it's language, right? Or the language of a painting, the language of art, the language of poetry, the language of movies. We're all connecting. We're looking for the thing to talk about. You know, people used to, back when we had TV shows that everybody watched. You'd go into the office. I mean, I didn't go into the office, but my wife did, and she'd say, you know, around the water cooler, people were talking about what was on TV the night before, if it was Seinfeld or something. Well, that's an art form. You're talking about art and art form, and it's connecting you together. Yes, bingo,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:05

exactly. And it's that deep rooted human need for connection in the end, yeah, yeah, man, and we could go even deeper, but on fun, yeah? But yeah, but yeah, by the way, do you have because you mentioned also that you'd love to do your plein air workshops. Do you have any upcoming workshops that you'd

Mark Shasha: 1:03:29

like to promote? I don't have any workshops at the moment. I just finished one a couple weeks ago, but I would encourage people to sign up for my go to my website, Mark shasha.com and sign up for my newsletter, which I love. I love the way Faso makes it so easy, and it's just so great. Just sign up for my newsletter, and then when I do a workshop, and I may do one in the fall, it depends on how a few things come together. I may do one in Portugal. I don't know. We'll see about next year, but I always have other a lot of things going on with me that you can always connect to. I have gallery exhibitions all the time. I'm in the guild of Boston artists on Boston on Newbury Street, where I used to be a starving artist. Now I'm in the big gallery there called the guild of Boston artists, where I've been a member for at least 15 years, and you can see me my work also at the Copley society or the North Star Art Association. The the marine Arts Gallery in Bonita Springs, Palmer Avenue Fine Arts in Sarasota, Florida, the the Hughes Skelly gallery in Balboa, California, in Newport Beach, the ILLUM gallery in Phillipsburg, Montana. And I'm in museums like the Mary Hill Museum. You can see my work on their permanent display, their permanent exhibition in the American Wing, and also at the San Angelo Museum of Art. So I'm all over the place. And of course, you can see my books, Night of the moon, jellies and amp wherever you buy books, the Hall of Beast is another book that did pretty well for a while. I have my other my videos. I can show you those, the golden hour with streamline publishing. My video how to do shimmering light with again, with streamline the Hall of beasts, one of the turned out to be an autobiographical book. So if you that is fiction, but it turned out to be autobiographical, and I won't, I won't spoil the ending for that, so I don't know, but I'm all over the country, videos and stuff, and I go to the plein air events, so look for them. Awesome. Oh, I will be, I will be one of the painters at the Cape Ann plein air event in October here in the Rockport area, Rockport, Massachusetts, and this is an idyllic, beautiful little town in New England, where it's one of the originators of plein air painting in the United States. You know, you've all seen those kitschy photograph, the kitschy art where there's a lighthouse and a seagull and a little sailboat. Well, it all started in Rockport, so we're still artists. Still gather there, and that's where I'll be in October. But other than that, I don't have any planned. It's all studio work this summer and into the fall.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:34

Awesome. Wow. Well, thank you so much, Mark. And of course, I will be including all of your links in the show notes, so anyone who wants to sign up can find the link really quickly by just going to show us. And yeah, thank you so much for your time. Mark. This was such

Mark Shasha: 1:06:47

an inspiring conversation. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for everything. Take care. Of

Laura Arango Baier: 1:06:52

course, you too. Bye.