Michelle Dunaway: 0:00

Perfectionism keeps us from working because we don't feel ready, we don't feel like we can do it well enough. We're not, you know, it keeps us stuck, right? But excellence, I feel, is something everyone can reach for. That's something that, to me, not only fosters creativity and you bringing your best to the moment, but it also encourages exploration. It encourages growth. And it's, again, it's really, you know, excellence is very faith based, it's very Spirit based, to me, to pursue. And you're putting goodness out into the world, you're putting excellence out into the world. You're putting inspiration out of the world where perfectionism is more fear based, ego based, like, what if it's not good enough? What are they going to think? What are they? You know, all that stuff that completely blocks creativity.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:49

Welcome to the BoldBrush show where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. For our last episode of the season, we sat down with Michelle Dunaway, a professional fine artist who creates deeply authentic portraits and landscapes, travels internationally to teach workshops and paint, and is passionate about capturing the essence of her subjects through a unique, emotionally resonant artistic approach. She discusses the journey of developing artistic skills while maintaining a unique creative vision, highlighting the need to balance technical proficiency with authentic self expression, Michelle shares insights from her mentors, particularly Richard Schmidt, about pursuing excellence rather than perfectionism, and the value of vulnerability in art. Her artistic process involves careful observation, brief planning compositions and leaving space for spontaneous creativity with a focus on capturing the essence of her subjects. Throughout the conversation, Michelle emphasizes the importance of staying curious, present and true to oneself, viewing art as a continuous journey of discovery and personal growth. Finally, Michelle tells us about her upcoming workshops, including online sessions and Africa based workshops focusing on immersive experiences and cultural integration in art. Welcome Michelle to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? I'm doing well. So nice to spend time talking with you. Laura, Yeah, you too. I am so excited because we've been trying to put this together for a while, and our lives have just been crazy busy, and it's always it always felt like we missed each other again and again. But here we are, and finally, I've got you. I have got you, and we can talk about your gorgeous, gorgeous work, and your beautiful life, philosophy and everything about you is just so uplifting that I'm really happy to have

Michelle Dunaway: 2:51

you. Thank you so much. I feel so inspired just looking at you. You look like a moving painting right now, like you just stepped out of a Waterhouse. You know, coming to life with your Renaissance you know, talk in the forest behind you. It's lovely.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:06

Thank you. Thank you. I feel like that's every girl's dream to be compared to a Waterhouse painting. I really appreciate that. Oh man. But before we discuss all of the wonderful things about painting and your paintings, of course. Do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you

Michelle Dunaway: 3:25

do? Yes. My name is Michelle. I'm an artist. I have been an artist. I think came into this world being an artist, honestly, I just, you know, was drawing before I could speak, it was just, I was captivated by color and nature and people and their faces and hand movements and things from be, you know, pre verbal So, yeah, so it's just, I'm so thankful to do this for a profession I didn't know until I was, you know, older, and, you know, maybe in my late 20s, that you could really Do this as a profession fine art, and it's just been such a joy, you know? So I feel like I'm living my dream every day, just traveling to different places. We're talking about traveling a little bit, and getting to know people in different locations, and painting the people and the landscapes of different regions is just, yeah, I'm just thankful every day to do that. Yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 4:22

it's a it's a dream come true. And actually, since you mentioned travel, I remember the first time we met, because you and I met in person when you were doing a workshop in Florence, Italy, that's right, yeah, a few years ago. Gosh, time flies. Um, so it's awesome. Was that 2019 that was so, yeah, it was like 2018 Yeah, because that's the year that I left Italy. Yeah, yeah. So, gosh, crazy, crazy, um, but that's what's beautiful, too. Look like you just said, you know about this career. It's very if, if you know, if you make it work out, and you put in the the discipline and the love, which you definitely have, you have these opportunities. These that open up, you get flexibility in terms of travel and in terms of the paintings that you make, right? You get to make the paintings you love. And that's yes, and

Michelle Dunaway: 5:11

is something that you know hard won over the years, because you know, when you're starting out, you're just trying to make a living, and you're trying to learn to be a better painter. So you know, you're just painting as much as possible, just to get the skill to do the things that you've always wanted to do, those paintings that you know we all have as artists that are in the back of our mind that we want to bring to life. And you know, when we do any kind of job to support that, really, when we're when we're starting out, and it's that balancing act when you're starting out of not having as much time to do what you want to do, but trying to hone your skills and, you know, survive in the world as well. And I'm so thankful to get to a place where, yeah, I can, I can paint what I, you know, moves my heart. And I think that's what we always have to keep at the forefront of, like, why we're learning the skill. You know?

Laura Arango Baier: 6:02

Yeah, and that's something that I think you know personally, because I, when I studied at the Atelier, it's really easy to lose sight of that when you're learning the techniques, because it is so enticing and beautiful and wonderful to learn academic techniques, because they're so, like, they're so gratifying, right? It's like, I get from point A to point B, but then suddenly you leave, and it's like, Wait, what was I trying to do? I'm like, Why did I go again? I just, I not all I know is academic stuff, and that's fine, and some people really love it, and they continue in and they do a beautiful job. But then, you know, there's some of us, like me, who are like, this was for another reason, and I need to give myself that time to, like, experiment and figure it out more, because now I have skill. Now it's like, Okay, now it's the what, what can I do with and that's and that's beautifully

Michelle Dunaway: 6:54

said. And I think that, you know story that was, you know my story as well. And I really think that's pretty much everyone's, you know, it's like we have something in us that we want to say we're something we're responding to, something in the world that we want to flesh out on canvas. And so that's why we spend time drawing. Because, you know, most of us drew when we were kids or adolescents, and we weren't doing it to be well known or to sell it, or to be in a gallery show. There was no ego involved in it. In other words, you know, it was all about just this pure, kind of, almost very spiritual to me, of just like creating and wanting to create something and bring it into existence like magic, right, you know, and and so then we, you know, get motivated to go to art school, and we get motivated to learn an anatomy, if you're want to do portraits, or get out and paint from life, if you want to do landscapes and and I do remember going through the same thing you just described, where it's like going to art school and you're painting, you know, eight hours a day, or drawing eight hours a day, just to get it accurate, and then feeling slightly, I wouldn't Say, disillusioned, but slightly, like, off when I got out, like, Wait, what was I? What was I doing this for, you know, because I don't want to just keep doing an anatomical, you know, study from life. I want there to be emotion. I want it to say something about how I see the world and how I intake and I'm inspired by life around me, and so I often tell students in my classes that I feel like, you know, it is important for us to learn our ABCs, right? But then the equivalent with art, then you go write your novel. And so with art, it's like we learn our techniques, but we learn it so that we can then say something about what we're experiencing in life. We write, you know, paint art, visual novel. And I always feel like paintings can either be a poem, a short story or or a novel. And all of those are valid, you know, and, and it's so important to remember the why, the why we want to do it, and what do we want to say, because, and there's this beautiful quote by Martha Graham, the choreographer, and I can't recite it verbatim, but I've had in my studio a long time. But the gist of it is, like, there's only one of you in this world, and your viewpoint is unique, and if you don't say what you're wanting to say through your art, no one else is going to say it. So like, have the courage to say it or express it in whatever medium you know, painting, music, writing,

Laura Arango Baier: 9:27

beautiful, beautiful. Yes, absolutely, it's so and I love how you compared it to magic, right? Because it does feel like magic. It does feel like, you know, there's this vision that you know we're carrying within us individually that we really want to put out there, because it might resonate with our people, right? Our the people who say, Oh my gosh, that looks like a dream I had, or, oh my gosh, that's that reminds me of my childhood, and it reminds us that, you know, there is a connection within all of us as. As humans through these images and through these, you know, like you said, like these visual poems or visual novels that we put out there, and it just unites us in its beauty and its expression, which is, you know, I think also why you started doing this career too.

Michelle Dunaway: 10:17

Yeah, yeah. I think that's why I, I still love, I mean, you can see the painting I did originally in the back. I still love to leave some abstraction, to leave some, you know, empty space in a painting. You know, for for several reasons, just to kind of take what we're talking about and apply it technically. Right is that we want to leave space for the viewer to come in and fill in some of their own experience and bring some of themselves to the process of, like, seeing the work. And I also, just on a technical, like, nerdy technical standpoint of an artist is, like, I like to see a little bit of each part of the process and the finished work. You know, I love Michelangelo's finished work, but I love his sketches that you can see, those, you know, piantamente lines, those, you know, approximations of finding the form and, and I think that's just as you know, it's part of the journey. And I think the journey is such the most beautiful thing to see in a work of art or a painting or any art form, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 11:16

yeah, totally, totally. And that reminds me of a quote that I like, which is, the the journey is the destination? Yes, because that, once again, you know, it's the act of creation. It's the Act of, you know, the development of something, and not necessarily all of it having to be brought to a finish. Because, like you said, you got to leave a little mystery. You know, there's, there has to be a little something in there that keeps the viewer also looking because I think that's where I think a lot of, like, beautiful academic student works differ from, like a professional artist's work is that the I feel like the academic work is finished. It's beautiful, it's polished, it's it's like, wow, this is a complete image, but there's no mystery left, because it's all been deciphered for you. But then in like, you know, a painter who has reached a higher level, they still, you know, they'll, they'll understand, okay, yeah, it's important to have the basic information for your viewer, but you also want to have that abstraction and that eye candy, that mystery, that lack of total completion, because I think that also brings the viewer into this, this world of what is that I want to, I would just want to keep looking at that, you know,

Michelle Dunaway: 12:33

yeah, and part of it, I feel like is, is with, you know, an advanced, You know, artist, or professional artist, part of is allowing yourself to be vulnerable in the process of creating and that power within vulnerability. Because I think, as a novice, we don't want to show our vulnerability, you know, not just as artists, but as people a lot of times. And you know, as we grow and mature just in wisdom, we realize that there is power in that vulnerability, and everyone wants the permission to allow that within themselves. And so, you know, rather than just creating a portrait, that's an analytical representation of the person in front of you, to think about, yes, it's important to get their likeness, if we're wanting to, you know, really portray this particular person. But it's also important to it's a part of, partly a self portrait of how we're seeing the world at that moment, and it's also a portrait of our connection with that person. So I always think of it as, like a three fold kind of Trinity thing. It's like of the person, of yourself, of the moment, of you connecting with the person, and our, you know, commonality as human beings coming together to create a work of art. And that's like, It always strikes me when I'm painting that this moment in time with this model or this subject will never exist again. It will never exist in exactly this form again, even if you paint them again in future. You know, it's just it's and that's so beautiful, and that is part of that mystery that is life and creativity. And I think when we allow that in ourselves, which keeps us sometimes from overworking a piece painting too much, we're sensitive more to our intention and the emotion we want to convey, the sensitivities we want to convey, the thing we want to capture and say the most, then it allows not just the subject, but the viewer also of the work to tap into their own sensitivities and vulnerabilities, you know. And it kind of makes me think there's another quote I love by Mozart that the music isn't just in the notes, but in the silence in between, you know. And we know, like I know you're a musician too, that it's not just about playing a piano concerto perfectly and getting every note perfect. It's the way the notes are played, the emotion that's conveyed, the pausing, the timing, all of that adds to it. And I think that equates to painting like the empty spaces, the transitions, you know, the edges, things like that,

Laura Arango Baier: 14:59

totally. Yeah, totally, yes. Oh man, that's, it's so true. And I think that's how you know, you know that it's a totally different level from, yeah, I'm just gonna draw this thing exactly as it is. Like, that's like, for anyone out there who's like, now what that's the next step? It's that silence between the notes and what you just said. Also about, you know, every moment is totally new. Every sunrise is different. Every painting is different. Every time he makes new paint, it is totally different paint from the one he made yesterday. Even though it's the same exact color, it reminds me of the quote that you never step into the same river twice. Oh, that one, yeah, it's from an ancient Greek philosopher. I love that quote, because it's true. You don't, you don't step in the same exact spot with the same exact part of the river that touches you right? So that's every moment. It's just totally new. And just

Michelle Dunaway: 15:53

the other night, I was out just marvel. I mean, we, I live in New Mexico, and we have, you know, it's called the Land of Enchantment, because we have the most incredible skies and sunsets. And I was, I ran out, actually, in my pajamas, because the sun's not setting till, like, almost nine o'clock, you know. And so, like, ran out, jumped in my car, went to the field near my house, and just was photographing and just taking in the sky. Because, you know, in all my years, I was like, I've never seen a sky exactly like this before. I've never seen colors exactly like this before, and it's just new. And I feel like that's actually a segue. I know you wanted to ask me about that certain quote of geniuses, childhood recovered at will by bold layer, which is one of my favorite quotes, segues into that because I think, as artists and just human beings. It's, it's part of our job, in a way, to see things as new every day and not become desensitized to life. And I think that's one of the reasons I love that quote, and it's hung in my studio for, you know, a very long time. Is that when I was starting out, I was a preschool teacher, and then I was doing art in the evenings. And I loved spending time with the kids. And I would just, you know, I was not an accredited teacher, so I was the break person. So I took the kids out to recess, I did art with them, I did things while the teachers took their breaks. And so I was with all age groups, from age three to age 13, and through this preschool and elementary school, and what I marveled at is that children, even in the same playground, even in the same environment that they'd go out into every day, they saw everything as new. They every day was something new to discover. And it just showed me that that's that's what that means to be as little children. You know, spiritually, it's also that quote genius is childhood recovered at will. Is that at will we we bring forth that discovery, that ability to look at things as if for the first time, and we put it into our art, you know. Oh, and that's, that is where our genius lies. Because, you know, sometimes after art school we get in the I think everybody that's probably listening to this is, you know, been in this situation, as I know I have, and I'm sure you have where you're like, I have this idea of something I want to paint, but I haven't really seen that done before, so it's probably not a good idea. And it's like, no, it's your you have a unique set of sensitivities, and that idea is coming to you because it's meant to come through you in a painting. And I think we have to be so attuned to that. And that's like that right there, to me, is the bridge from becoming a student to a professional, although I feel like we're always students in the way of like we should always be learning, like Michelangelo said, like in his 70s, I'm still learning, you know, but going into, you know, the professional realm where you are painting your ideas and your sensitivities, and you're trying to share that with the world, and you're not just copying, right? And you're expressing, and that's like the subtle difference. But you know someone who's in that stage, and what I wish someone had told me, because it took me a while to figure that out, was just at that stage, when you have the skill is just go back to noticing what catches your breath, what makes you pause and and stop in a moment in life and go, Wow, that's that's visually beautiful, or this is a moment I want to capture and paint. And I know sometimes I'll even be with friends or other artists, where they may not be responding to the same thing I'm responding to, but we have to become very sensitive and aware of those moments that we respond to, and that's kind of giving you clues as to maybe what your future paintings will be,

Laura Arango Baier: 19:49

yeah, and I think also that sensitivity is so important to build as well. Because I think a lot of us think, Oh, but I don't, I don't know. I don't know. It's like, okay, pause and get off the internet for like, a few days, exactly, because it's so easy. And again, from my experience, it's so easy to fall in love with other people's view of something, right? It's super easy because the way that they express it is beautiful, because what they're putting out there is beautiful. That isn't always your vision, right? It's like, you have to remember also to like, you know, if you see the world with your own filter, and to like, remove filters that aren't yours, right? If it's not like, oh, it's like, you know, if I want to paint like a person, right, if I want to make a master copy, I'm borrowing their vision, right? But then to make my own work, I have to remember to not use someone else's vision. Like, yeah, okay. I could take from, you know, different artists that I've learned from, and I can, yeah, exactly. And then you go from there, and that really brings back what you said earlier, too, about, like, after you go to, like, academic school, or you learn technique, it's like, okay, this is the moment where I need to give myself space and time to develop, like, I don't know, like letting bread dough rise. Yeah,

Michelle Dunaway: 21:19

yeah. And the more you listen to your instincts. And this is true in life as much as an art. The more you listen to it and follow it, the clearer that voice

Unknown: 21:27

becomes, you know, Yep, yeah, it's like a muscle, yeah,

Michelle Dunaway: 21:31

definitely. That's a perfect way to describe it. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 21:34

You just gotta start working it out. It's gonna be like first but it'll get easier and easier before you know it. And actually, I wanted to ask you too, because I'm really curious, because you mentioned it, you know, in your late 20s, that's when you realize, oh my gosh, I can make a career out of this, yeah, which, you know, that's actually crazy,

Michelle Dunaway: 21:49

before you could do illustration. You know, that's kind of what I saw when I was going to school and went to art center, College of Design, and I was focusing on illustration. But I didn't realize, like, fine art was something that, at that time, people could, you know, segue into so, so important museums, you know, is

Laura Arango Baier: 22:10

past work, yeah, exactly. It's like, oh well, they're dead, and no one does that anymore. Yeah, that's also the thought I had until, you know, I was in high school, and I was like, Oh my gosh, maybe, maybe this would be nice, but I don't know. And then, of course, we, yeah,

Michelle Dunaway: 22:25

I was in our school is, you know, that was kind of a belief at that time. Everything was focused on illustration. And thankfully, that's, it's not the case anymore. You know, there's been such a huge resurgence of fine art. And I just always something. I mean, looking at the beautiful painting behind you, you know how many people have painted trees throughout the centuries, but you know, there's always a new and beautiful way to portray it. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 22:51

yeah, and it's that person's unique vision. And speaking of unique visions, because I know that. You know you studied with Richard Schmidt, of course, yeah, I want to know what, in part, you know, what was that like for you? And then also, when you had that aha moment of, I can pursue this as a career, what like, what led you to decide to study with Richard? Or what? How was that for you?

Michelle Dunaway: 23:18

Yeah, well, it's interesting because it's like when I first discovered Richard's work through alla prima, which, you know, seeing that book, it was very profound, and I shared with him this story that, you know, I had, I would, I was already painting in the way of like doing vignettes and seeing abstraction versus realism is kind of how I naturally saw life. And for me, I've never wanted to paint a particular style in a contrived way. I've always wanted to paint authentically how I'm viewing life. And when I'm inspired by a person, I see an individual, you know, I do zero in the focus on their face, in my mind, and see everything else as abstraction, because it's just kind of how the human eye sees, when we see something that draws our interest. And so I really wanted to paint that way. And I remember going to school, and it was like I wasn't an illustration program, and I was dissuaded constantly that from teachers that to paint that way, they were like, it needs to be finished out to the edges, you you know, the person needs to be in an action pose, something needs to be happening. And they were coming from that standpoint, you know, of that field. And I was very young, you know, I was like, 20, when I was there in art school, and 1920 and so I was like, Oh, well, they, they probably know better than me, but I just this was what was authentic to me when I sketched, when I was on the phone or doodling, I would sketch an eye and then have it go off into abstraction. It's just how I in took the world. And I'll never forget when I was I was taking a break from art school to save some money, and I was about 2021, and I was teaching a figure drawing class at a. Local school in New Mexico, and there was this book sitting on the table, and it was the new book that had come out, and it was all a prima and as I flipped through it, I saw someone who was painting the way I desired to paint, but was told not to. I saw these vignettes, and I remember after I got to know Richard, he talked about how he did get pushback from gallery saying, well, it's not finished out to the edges. You know, we need to be able to charge for this square inch of blank canvas things like ridiculous things like that. That, he said. But I saw, I saw someone that listened to his own voice when I looked through the images and it gave me permission at that age to listen to my own voice over the older, you know, more established teachers that were giving me, you know, their best advice, but it was not what was correct for me and I, I even tell students that I teach, I'm like, I'm going to give you advice, but you always have to weigh it upon yourself what is in accordance or in alignment with your desires as an artist, right? Because I can just share from my experience, but everyone I think, is like, yes, we are an accumulation of knowledge from all of those that have come before us, but then we also have something new to share and and we need to be sensitive to both, you know. And so that really just transformed my painting. And when I went back to art school and started going through the painting program, I soon, I left soon afterwards and didn't finish for various reasons. But one of the reasons is I realized I just wanted to take some workshops. I wanted to study. I kind of I knew what I wanted to learn at that point. And you know, I wish, you know, at that stage, I could have just been like, oh, I want to study with Richardson and go Richardson and go study with him. You know, he wasn't teaching workshops. He did teach one with Burton Silverman. It was in Colorado, and I just, I remember being 22 and I just couldn't afford to do it. And I was like, I'll catch the next one. He never taught another workshop. That was his last one that he taught as an official workshop. And so that that taught me at that age, you know, when you see an opportunity to learn, you know, you jump on it, because you never know, you know. And I've had students say to me, Oh, I'll do your, you know, Africa one next year. I'm like, Well, I don't know if I'll be doing you know, I just don't know life changes and ebbs and flows, as we were talking about you. But I will always find a way to teach in some capacity. But to circle back to your main question with Richard. You know, it's always a dream, of course, to study and learn from him. And you know, I'm so thankful, as so many artists are, that he put that wealth of knowledge in all of prima and so generous and so open and vulnerable with everything that he shared. And it just, you know, as much as he loved painting, I also realized be becoming good friends with him since between 2010 and when he passed in 2021 and spending a lot of time with him that teaching, to me, was really one of his first loves. Like he he wanted to pass on knowledge. He wanted to share things he wants. He, you know, had this, you know, belief that one person's success, it can be everyone's success. You know, it's like, we're here to lift each other up. We're here to, like, illuminate life. You know, doing great art is not about ego. It's not about elevating yourself as an artist, and it's about elevating life, elevating creation, elevating the model, elevating that beauty, so that we all come away being reminded that we live in the stupendous universe, you know. And so as I got to know him over the years, that was just such an incredible blessing to paint with him. And it just even solidified the why for me, that I'm doing it because he, you know, would always say, and written in his book, don't paint what you see. Paint, what you see, what paint, what moves you, and that it is a communion between your model and yourself, in a way. But how that happened with me ending up studying with him? Of course, I dreamed of it, like many people you know would dream of it. And then when I was at a conference. I wasn't teaching at the conference, but I was at the first weekend with the Masters in it, and I met him, and I met some other artists there, and he said, Oh, you know, we'll like, you know, love to see your work sometime, and we just, you know, got along. And I met his wife, Nancy Cusick, who's an amazing artist. And then shortly after that, a few months after that, I entered the portrait society with a portrait that got in as finalists, the double portrait of Jane Seymour's daughters. And it was, you know, it was such a thrill to enter that and get in. I actually didn't. Was not aware at the time, thankfully, that it was such a big competition like the Academy Awards of portrait painting. So I kind of naively, you know, my friend Jeremy, I was painting in his studio, and he's like, You should enter that. And I was like, Okay, I'll, I'll enter this. And you know, I hadn't. Into it yet. So I was just like, when they called me and said I got in, I was like, Oh, thank you. And the person at the time is Gordon Whitmore, the chairman, was like, No, you don't understand. We had like, four or 5000 worldwide entries, and we picked 16. And I was like, Oh, thank you. I didn't, I didn't realize, and I might have been scared to enter if I had realized, you know, and now I realize, like, you just have to feel the fear and do it anyway, you know, and enter stuff. And when I my painting was a finalist, they put them online, and, you know, they put them the finalists in magazines. And I got a call from Richard Schmid, and I recognized his voice because I'd watched his, you know, videos and everything and so much, and I had met him in person, and he called me up and he invited me to come paint with him, you know. And he still, of course, wasn't teaching workshops or teaching regularly, but he's like, you know, come up and paint with me and my wife, Nancy. And he just said the most wonderful things about my work and the skill he thought I had, and it was a dream. And, you know, I went up there, and we just connected me and him and his wife, Nancy, we just became fast friends. And you know, they are like family. You know, Nancy is one of my closest friends, and, and, you know, and and Richard and I, you know, even talked during the pandemic until he passed away, and, you know, often on Zoom and stuff. And one funny little story, and I did tell Richard this, you know, after I'd known him a couple of years, I said, when you called me, I was with my mom in the hospital, and it was the first time she had been in the hospital since she had given birth to me, and they were going to maybe need to do a surgery. She was like, had an you know, infection from taking a medication and, and, and when I got the phone call, I didn't check the caller ID. I just assumed it was my dad. So I put it on speaker, and I said, Hello. And Richard said, Is this Michelle Dunaway? And he said it in his voice, and he goes, this is Richard Schmidt. Now I had made my mom, ad nauseum, watch videos with me. Every time I was home from college, I'd be like, watch this art video, because she's into art. You know, my dad's an engineer, so, but my mom is a painter, and she would watch it so she knew his voice. So I looked at her as I'm happy, you know, trying to sound very professional and calm, like, Oh, hi, wow, thank you. You're calling me. Oh, thank you for what you're saying about my pain. I'm trying to, like, be very calm and you know, and my mom's going, like, you know, just, she's just jumping up and down, practically so excited, because she knows what this means to me. Long story short, after that phone call, my mom's infection went away. She didn't need surgery. And so I said, Richard, you healed my mother. You didn't just change my life, but you healed my mother, you know, and and he laughed, and he's like the power of art. Oh, sorry, long answer to your question.

Laura Arango Baier: 32:56

Oh, no, but that's great. I love hearing, you know, anecdotes like this, because, you know, oh, he was so precious. And then I've only ever heard stories about him, and I didn't get the chance to meet him, but he sounds more and more like a really precious person.

Michelle Dunaway: 33:11

He is. Both him and Nancy are just such special people, and they had such a grace. I mean, she's does as well. She's, you know, doing her art with how they work with a model, and how they go about, you know, they don't, they don't just create art, but they live their lives as art. And that's I feel, something that, you know, we all should kind of feel called or challenged to do. You know that painting is a reflection of the way we live our lives. It's not something we just do and try to get. And I always try to instill that in students when we're working with a model, because, of course, there's something in us, you know, especially when we're painting and something's not turning out and we get frustrated. We're trying to capture it, you know, we just want it so bad. But I feel like we have to look with softer eyes and be like, not be focused on what can I get? What can I get in my painting, but be focused kind of on, what can I give through my painting? You know, you know, you're giving the model, this experience of working with them. You're also giving yourself the experience of really paying attention to life, really dissecting everything like a puzzle to figure out how to implement it with brushstrokes, pigment drawing and edges and values, you know. And when we see it like that, we do become kind of like little children. And our genius comes out to play because we're seeing it as a game or a puzzle or like a brain teaser, rather than something that we have to own or get or capture, you know. And it's a very subtle shift in perception, but it makes a huge difference in the painting process. And I do remember once, one of the first times I was painting with Nancy, and we'd set up a model with still life elements, and Nancy does beautiful still lifes with tea cups and different things. And I had kind of never done that, and there were tea cups and things, you know. Plates and antiques behind this model, and I'm thinking, I don't know how to paint this because I've never painted it, right? But we're always painting stuff we've never known how to paint. And I she came over to offer me advice, and she could tell I was I was stuck. I was just in my head spinning. And she said, don't worry if you don't know all the answers or the solutions, fall in love with asking yourself the questions that lead to those answers, and that just so I remember that because as a kid I loved doing like, mazes, puzzles, any kind of like, you know, the kind of exploratory kind of games. So now that's how I see is paintings, because I'm challenging myself, especially recently, to do paintings I've never done. You know, paintings in Africa, wildlife, you know, different things. There's even just different techniques I want to do in portrait paintings and uses of color and atmospheric effects and things like that. But I see it now as like, okay, it's this beautiful quest that you're going on. It's this beautiful exploration, you know, and you figure it out as you go, like, the journey, you know? It's the journey part. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 36:11

exactly, exactly. Oh, that is so inspiring. Just, you know. And again, like that really brings to mind how you describe Nancy as someone with a lot of grace, and I think that's a quality that I think a lot of people don't have enough of for themselves, having grace for yourself, right? Having that grace of like, you know, I don't have all the answers, but that's okay. I'm not going to punish myself, because that means that that's my starting point, right? I can just explore until I can reach maybe another question that leads to maybe another question, another question, and then eventually maybe have some sort of answer, because it's, I love how you described it kind of like a puzzle, right? Because that really is every single time you approach painting, it's a puzzle that has to be solved in some way, or has to have some solution. It's okay for it to not be fully solved, or

Michelle Dunaway: 37:04

even, you can say, just be explored. Explore this puzzle in your work, and if it doesn't turn out on the painting, you know, wipe it out and do it again and explore a different path, you know. And you definitely solutions come and that's where you do figure out solutions to your to your painting, but I think that's very such an important thing that you brought up that we need to offer ourselves that grace and that kindness, and that's honestly what I'm always reminding students of. And I had to learn that for myself, and it was a very kind of hard learning process for me, because I was harder on myself than I would ever be on another person. You know, I was like, I call myself like a recovered perfectionist, or like, you know, because it's like, you know, being an overachiever, being, you know, a perfectionist, as most artists are, that leads to frustration that doesn't lead to excellence. And I'm not saying don't over you know, set out great achievements, but we need to be kind to ourselves in the process and look at things gently, because then we can explore. Then we, you know, ask questions that are intelligent of ourselves, of our process, throughout the process of painting, and we find solutions that just, you know, we then add to like, our knowledge and repertoire of techniques that we can use at any future time. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 38:23

great, yeah. And, I mean, I think also that brings it back to the quote about, you know, the geniuses childhood recovered at will. And I think I would add to that, that it's also recovered in with grace, because there's nothing more sad than a child who shies away from drawing or from expressing themselves out of fear of judgment or fear and shame, right? And I find that it is. It's a learned thing, because

Michelle Dunaway: 38:53

when I worked at the daycare, I didn't see it in kids until they hit maybe six or seven, and then you could tell it was input from adults, or, you know, someone else, that they started to doubt themselves, the kids, three, four and five. I didn't see that in them,

Laura Arango Baier: 39:10

yep. So it's, I think, in part, you know, it's like going back to being that six, seven year old who has just been told, Oh, that's terrible. Or, Oh, why are you drawing that? Stop doing that. It's like you have to, you know, give yourself the grace. Like, why not? I want to do it. And you have to be a little stubborn, right? I feel like, when you mentioned earlier, like, you know, you got to stick to your vision a little bit more. It's like you got to be stubborn, you know, for that six, seven year old you who was maybe told no, no, no. It's like, yes,

Michelle Dunaway: 39:43

yeah, exactly. And I get a lot of students that say, wow, you know, I got stuck when someone told me that I shouldn't do something at a certain age, whether it was young adult or even older, you know, or as children. And part of our, you know, our process of. Creating artists, breaking that within ourselves. For me as a teacher, it's helping other people break through that too, because it's the beautiful thing is, we're all like, you know, different crayons in the crayons box. So it's so to speak, we all like see life differently and with unique angles. At the same time, though, we also have this commonality of humanity that is all shared, and that's what connects us and how we connect through our vulnerability, through our authenticity, through our art, through our creativity. You know why we're moved by certain pieces of music or paintings or, you know, anything, and so I always find it, it's what I love about portraiture that we're this mix of, you know, underneath our skin, we're we're so similar, we all kind of want to love and be loved. We want to be inspired. We want to do meaningful work. We want to have joyful moments. We all have struggles we overcome, and we we're familiar with overcoming of those struggles and learning to listen to our intuition, all these things that make us human, right? But then you know, on the other side is none of us really look alike, even twins, you know, like we don't look exactly like we don't have the exact same life experience. We don't have the exact same sensitivities. You know, we all have this, you very unique lens that any unique way to express what we've intake through that lens. And so we're as unique as snowflakes, but, you know, we are all connected, and it's like that just always kind of gives me goosebumps to think about, and I think about it every time I paint another human being, you know. And so, you know, as much as we realize we're connected, we do have to realize, and it's hard to realize at seven years old, that it's okay to see the world differently and it's okay to have a unique viewpoint and different viewpoints. One's not better than the other, necessarily. They're both valid and important. You know?

Laura Arango Baier: 41:57

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a dialog, and it doesn't help to cut off your own dialog for the sake of someone else's, you know, overpowering it, right? So, yeah, yeah. And also, speaking of being stuck, have you ever faced artist block or burnout, and how have you personally overcome that?

Michelle Dunaway: 42:17

So I honestly never had artists block like a creative block. I have so many ideas that I want to paint, it could feel like four or five lifetimes, literally, like I just, you know, sometimes start to worry, like, am I going to get everything done that I wanted to do? Because, you know, and I'm sure you might be familiar with this or other people, is that there are things that I wanted to paint last year that I ran out of time painting, but now I'm having new experiences. So there's new things I'm wanting to paint at the same time, there's old things that I still want to paint. And, you know, I have this backlog of, like, you know, that I even have reference for of, you know, hundreds of paintings that I'd like to paint. But I'm also having new experiences and getting new ideas. And so that's something, and I think that just comes with being attentive to life, right? If you're attentive to life, I just feel like I've also never been bored or never felt lonely, and just like there's just so much to absorb. I hate to go to sleep. I hate to miss anything. You know, I just even ever since I was a child, I did have the burnout after art school, but that was because I kind of had lost sight of my why. For a little while, I got so into the mechanics of it that I lost sight of bringing myself to it. And I think that's the thing is, and both parts are important, right? It's important to learn that technique, the mechanics, but it's so important to get in touch with ourselves and like Know thyself. You know that adage that, what do I want to say with this skill that I've accumulated, what's important to me to say? And you know that can vacillate day to day, sometimes it's important to me just to catch catch a bit of light on the landscape or cross someone's face, or capture an introspective moment, you know, like, like the painting behind me, or sometimes it's important to, like, show a scene, or show a person in an environment, or show something of their life. And so it depends on what I'm responding to and inspired by in life. And so I think the biggest thing, if you you know someone is out there facing artist block. Or, you know, it's getting in getting in touch with your own sensitivities. I think we get blocked in different areas in life when we start trying to think how someone else would do it, how to be successful like someone else, rather than thinking what is authentic to me and what moves my spirit, and when we do that, I feel like the idea is just free flow, you know, like, you know, I told you in art school, you know how they didn't really dissuaded me. Tried to, you know, dissuade me from doing vignettes. They also tried to dissuade me from painting it someone in an introspective moment. They. Were like, it should be an action what always interested me when I watched movies, even like an action movie, like, let's say the movie Gladiator, for example, right? You know. And I love the action scenes, you know. And you know, we're in as we've talked, we're into some of that stuff in historic you know. But I love the moments when you see a character before, after a battle, the amp, the reflectiveness, the emotions that pass through someone eyes, someone's eyes, before the stories told, or after the main event. And it's what also fascinates me when I'm sitting and talking to a friend having coffee, and they're telling me something that's important, and I'm listening to that, but also to see the emotions that come across their eyes and their expressions and their micro expressions before they allow themselves to be vulnerable, to share that or after. Those are the things that have always captivated me ever since I can remember, and that's that is what I now paint. But it took me a while to realize, to listen to that in myself, that that's what moves me. And I can appreciate a painting of, you know, someone in an action scene. You know, when I see paintings in Italy or at the fizzy words like this big, grandiose narrative. But the thing that captures me the most is the the journey, the journey of emotion that a human goes through in their life. And so, you know, being aware of that helped me to then be sensitive to what I was seeing and have ideas for painting. And have countless ideas for paintings, because I'm always interacting with humans and observing them. And now I'm experiencing that with animals, you know, when I go to Africa, seeing them go through those same kind of things, even though it's a different species, and it's incredible, you know. So I think just if anyone out there is suffering any kind of burnout or block, you know, sit with yourself. Journal, spend time in nature. Just sit with your thoughts and think about, you know, observe and be attentive to what moves you and you know, just to circle back to one other thing you said, which I think this is an important point. I heard someone talk about, you know, as we get so preoccupied, when you said, put down your phone, you know, I heard someone lecturing, I can't remember his name, but he was saying about how he and his friends decided to, unless there was an emergency, they had to put away their phones. When they're at dinner, don't have them on the table. And one of the things he talked about is the tendency, we have say, if you are at dinner with friends, you know, and they get up to go to the bathroom or whatever, you're alone. You're alone at the table, the tendency is to flip out your phone, check your email, check your Instagram, check and what we forget. And what this gentleman said is, what we forget is our those quiet moments where we observe the world around us, when we're not even talking to another person, but we're in taking, we're observing, we're listening. Those are where we get our credit greatest creative ideas. And so I force myself to like unless there's something urgent that I need to look at. You know, if you have kids or you're taking care of someone, that's different, but unless there's something urgent, if I'm alone, I'm not going to pick up my phone and scroll, you know, I set a limit of that, and I'm going to observe people interacting. I'm going to observe their facial expressions as they talk to them each other. I'm going to observe, you know, how the how the trees are moving, how the wildlife is you know, whether it's birds, if you're in a city or somewhere else, just how people intersect with nature and with each other, and that's where I get my countless ideas from, and we have to discipline ourselves with that, because the phone's a great tool. Internet's a great tool. You know, we wouldn't be here talking if it wasn't, it didn't in existence. But it's we have to discipline ourselves to just be quiet inwardly and absorb and take in life around us. If

Laura Arango Baier: 49:06

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Unknown: 51:27

you know, totally, totally, and that's, and you never run out of ideas, ever Exactly,

Laura Arango Baier: 51:32

yeah, because it's, it's there. And what's funny is that reminded me immediately of the quote by Mozart that you mentioned about, yeah, the the silence between the notes. Why? Why are you trying to fill every silence, right? Like, like, that silence of, oh, the person went to the bathroom, I'm gonna grab my phone. You're filling in that silence with something else instead of just enjoying the silence, right? I think

Michelle Dunaway: 51:55

that's that. It's, unfortunately, is habitual. Like, I don't feel there's not anything wrong with looking at the phone and scrolling, but if you look at it in the morning, when you wake up first thing before you, and this is a quote from the same guy who was talking about this other thing, the other instance of keeping your phone off and put away if you look at it, he said, before you talk to the person next to you, Before you look out the window, then you're addicted, and you're feeding that addiction. And there's nothing wrong with it, but, you know, we I remember just today, I woke up and the sun was coming in, and I just sat there, and that's, you know, my prayer and meditation time and time to kind of just seek guidance and how I should go about my day. And, you know, and I'm disciplining myself to do that. And you know, sometimes in the past, I have reached over, turned off my alarm, and you start looking at your phone, and then it's half an hour later, and you realize you don't feel great because you haven't done what's necessary for, you know, your well being first, which is to connect to, just for me, it's connect with nature, connect with, you know, people I love, or just connect with the quiet and my own, you know, self.

Laura Arango Baier: 53:12

And that brings it back again to, you know, every day it's a new day, right? That sun that's streaming in through a window is a brand new sun, right? Of course, it is the same sun, but it's not the same temperature, humidity, moment. It's not the same day, it's not, we're not even in the same spot in the universe, right? Yeah,

Unknown: 53:30

and I'm not even exactly the same, you know, that's another day for me too. Yeah?

Laura Arango Baier: 53:35

So it's nice to be aware of that, because it's like, Ah, what's new today? What's like, I feel like every day when I wake up, it's like, I wonder what life's gonna throw at me today, but I'm gonna handle it, you know, or what, what? What am I most excited to do today? Because there's always something fun to do and to look forward to.

Michelle Dunaway: 53:53

And I try to remember. I don't always remember, but I try to what can I bring to all my interactions today, and that was on the forefront of my mind today, because I knew we were going to be talking, and it's, you know, early here for me, you know, even, because I'm a night owl, so 9am is early, right? So, but it's like, what can I bring? And want to bring Authenticity. I want to bring presence. I want to bring you know truth and you know, to share, to inspire, you know. And I think sometimes we we do get focused on, Oh, what am I going to have to deal with today? What do I have to do rather than thinking? And I'm so guilty of this myself too, especially when I have deadlines and things are getting really busy, but that's when we have to stop and be like, What do I bring to the day? What do I bring to my work? You know, even if you're cleaning your studio, what do I bring to that process? You know, I had a friend just yesterday. She's not a painter, but she's like, I'm going to go play in my office. And I was like, playing. Her office. She goes, Well, I have to clean my office and do my taxes, but I'm going to see it in the mindset of a child going to play. And I was like, That is brilliant, you know? And it just made me look differently, like the the grudge work that I, you know, have to do, because there is that associated with art, right? It's not just, you know, your easel painting. It's like, there's pre planning, which I love, and but then there's like, framing and packing and shipping and things that I don't love, you know, all the technical stuff, and we have to, you know, find joy and presence in that as well, you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 55:34

yeah, and that's I feel like, for a lot of artists, especially, like, we all just want to be in the studio. We all just want to be painting, right? We all just want to be doing the thing that we love, but the mundane stuff is also what can make or break. How if you're able to sell something, right? How can you sell something if you haven't photographed it? If you haven't, you know, put on the internet, if you haven't, you know, made time for completing that process. I mean, it's totally fine if you're painting as hobby and it's not your goal to sell. But if you want it to be a career, of course, you are going to have to face the mundane reality of the job, and that is photographing your work and putting it out there and talking to galleries or reaching out to collectors. And if you turn it to like, you said, like a game, like a fun thing, or it's like, okay, it's like a video game. Let's see what's going to happen, then it's a lot easier to approach things. And that's something I think about quite often, is oftentimes when I realize that I'm avoiding something. It isn't because of that something. Oftentimes it's like something that takes five minutes, but I feel like it's my mindset around it, or the systems that I'm trying to implement to get myself to do the thing exactly. Yeah,

Michelle Dunaway: 56:42

yeah. I was just thinking about that, you know, this morning too. And, you know, kind of my morning prayer meditation, because i There were, there were some grudge work things that I need to do, you know, organizational things and stuff that I'm like, I just want to work on the next painting. I just finished a commission and I'm ready to get started on the next painting. There's other stuff that I need to do that I've been putting off. As we all go through right your inbox is full the day you die, because you have something you still have to do. But what I realized, and kind of felt like I received this morning, just in a beautiful way, was that, you know, we feel overwhelmed when we just it's our mentality about it, when we're thinking like, I have to do this all on my own. And you know, for me, I, you know, my faith is very important to me as a Christian. And I think in a flip that I realized I don't have to do anything on my own. I can have guidance through everything. I can have presence through everything. And so lately, my goal has been in those mundane things. Can I find the holiness in that? Can I find the holy I used to hate cooking food because that was time away from painting? Can I find holiness in and beautiful presence and joy in that process of making food especially for a loved one, can I find? Just recently, I packed up a painting to send to a collector. And usually that's stressful for me, you know, trying to find the box and my myriad of boxes in the garage, and, you know, finding the right Styrofoam and the right packing and, you know, making sure it's protected, and they're all that taking it. And I was like, instead of thinking about that and trying to rush through it. I thought, I'm going to, you know, really focus on each process as I'm cushioning this painting. This is for a collector, a student that I know and care about, and I'm doing something to be caring for their artwork that they are going to enjoy and going to cherish every day, and that's going to bring them joy. And as soon as I switched that, it was the one of the first times packing a painting became a joy. Because, you know, we're always thinking about, like, oh, getting it right, and what could go wrong. And, you know, protecting the artwork. And I started thinking about just the and it just became, it became beautiful, you know. And I'm not saying I want to spend all my time doing that. I still like I might one day have an assistant do that, but it was, it was beautifully transformative, because all that changed was my thought process about it. And we all have those things in our day to day life, you know, I used to hate setting up to paint back in the day is now my favorite thing to do. And I realized when I was paint from life, getting out my brushes going especially when I would travel, you know, right, not at my studio, but to an open studio, you know, lugging up all my supplies, getting it set up, I used to dread that, and then I started seeing it as a beautiful process of preparation like that. I'm getting this chance to paint and taking care of my brushes and laying them out and thinking of how I want to, you know, create and, you know, honor the model and spend the sacred time. And now I'm flooded with that every time I'm, you know, slipping my stuff around and getting ready to set. Up to date, it's become a joy. And so we can change that in our mind, you know? And I heard someone once say that, you know, we're when we feel frustrated, when frustration seeps in, learning ceases. And so we have to figure out a way to keep the frustration away, and we don't, we don't do that by fighting against it. We do it by filling it with something else, you know, can I fill it with presence? Can I feel it? Fill it with, you know, just total fascination. And wonder at, at looking at what I'm going to paint, you know. And then we stop thinking about the like, oh, I can't do it. I don't know how to do it. And we start seeing, Oh, look at that beautiful color. I wonder what would happen if I mix these colors? Wonder what would happen if I use this brush and we teach ourselves and we learn new techniques, you know?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:53

Yeah, and it's so easy, all right? I mean, that was great, because it's it, you know, it brings to to mind also how, and you mentioned this a little bit earlier as well, how, like, you know when you're in your everyday life, in every moment, you know you're not just an artist at the easel. I feel like every moment you are an artist. Yes, you're in the present moment, and there's a beauty in every moment, whether it's, you know, a difficult moment, whether it's a frustrating moment, there's always something there, where, when you're in the present, there's something, there's always something to appreciate, um. And you know that that brings that to mind, that I also, you know, I also have that same struggle, like, oh, setting up. Oh no, because especially with oil paints, it's, it can be a lot of time just to set up, um, and to have things exactly as you want them. And then by the time you're done setting up, it's like, oh, now I can start but Oh man, it's late Exactly. Gosh darn it. Um, so I totally get that

Unknown: 1:01:58

we're cleaning up your brushes. Oh my goodness, yeah, like,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:02:01

one, like, two or three in the morning after doing, like, a long, like, painting, and then it's like, oh, if I don't clean my brushes, they're gonna suffer, and this is gonna make my life harder.

Michelle Dunaway: 1:02:10

I used to dread that. I can't tell you how many times I pulled myself out of bed being like, I didn't clean my brushes. I need to clean them because they're, you know, expensive, and I need to keep them in good shape. Now I've switched it to where I'm like, you know, I do. I love movies, especially foreign movies. And, you know, watching her, you know, epic, kind of like historical movies. And, you know, I don't have a lot of time because I'm, you know, painting or doing something else. And so now that's what I do. When I clean my brushes. It's like my guilt free movie watching time at the end of the day. And it usually to clean the amount I might use in one painting session. I'll show you like this, I use about this many brushes. I use a lot of brushes. So because I'm constantly grabbing new brushes and different hairs through different things. So that's be like painting eight or nine hours, you know. And so this, I have found takes about an hour and a half to two hours to clean. So it's perfect. It fits in with, you know, just putting a movie on and cleaning your brushes. So I've made something a way to make it fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:03:10

Yeah, yeah. I do something similar. I do I listen to podcasts. Yeah? Because it's like, your brain just is like, okay, it's fine. You can listen to this while you're like, tidy up. And and it doesn't feel like so I guess mundane to clean your brushes. It's actually becomes kind of fun. But yeah, and then actually speaking of process, because you did mention a little bit of you know, you setting up and enjoying it. What is your process like when you started painting, you know, from initial idea all the way to finished piece, okay, yeah.

Michelle Dunaway: 1:03:47

And I guess it depends on whether it's like a Studio Gallery, kind of larger portrait, or an alla prima, or, you know, landscape. I'll start first with the, you know, more simpler, you know, when you're traveling and you're, you know, either doing plein air or, you know, painting someone, to me, that's a little bit like a treasure hunt, right? It kind of brings out that kid explorer in me, of like looking for a buried treasure where, you know, I was recently teaching at the portrait Society of American DC, and we do this. They do this. Faculty face off the first night, and you don't know what model you're going to get. You don't even know where you're going to set up or what artists you're going to be painting with. There's three artists to a model. You draw a number out of a hat. You go to that where that number is, and you don't really have control over the model and lighting. You can collaborate with the other artists, but it has to be a good view for everybody. So you just kind of extract treasure from the viewpoint you have the lighting situation you're in, and there's something beautiful to me about that lack of control and that excavation of that and the same with the landscape, with, you know, changing light and even bugs and such and nature. You know, just like having a limited amount of time. To just capture something from life, and, you know, with light and and that really, to me, hones your sensitivities to what moves you as an artist, right? And someone could get that same experience that I got at portrait society if they go to an open model workshop, you know, when you set up and, you know, pick your space to draw or paint often before the model has set the pose. And sometimes you know you'll get a pose you really like and a view you really like, and sometimes you won't. And I actually always learned more on the poses where I didn't have an inspiring view, because I had to find something that moved me and pull it out and make it the dominant feature in the painting and and so that really kind of hones your sensitivities on the other side, you know, the flip side of that. And I try to do that, you know, a lot paint from life, especially when I travel and have time to, you know, spend a few days, you know, here and there, doing landscapes or repainting from life, is working on something in the studio. And of course, I'd love to paint from life all the time, but you know, that's just not realistic. You know, some, especially even some of the poses that I want to do, someone can't hold for, you know, they might hold it once and then never speak to me again, because it's too hard to hold, you know. So it's like, I always want to take care of my models, you know, and keep them safe and healthy, but so I do you utilize photography, and I think as long as you paint from life regularly, you'll know what to change in photography, because even the best cameras, and I have a really good camera, but it lies to you, it pushes the contrast, it dilutes the color, it makes everything a sharp edge. You know, especially even with the more tech technologically advanced the systems get. You know, I had this new camera that I took in Africa, and when I was going there the first time a couple years ago. And it's like, you can zoom in and see the dirt on the whisker of a lion. You know, it's like, that detailed. I don't need that for painting. So a lot of times we with photography, you do have to really selectively edit what you're going to paint so that your painting looks more like you painted it from life and how the human eye sees. Um, but often for me, I'd say from the genesis of a creation of a painting, like why I choose certain things to paint first, it comes from observation, which we already talked about, just just being really observant of people around you, whether you're interacting with them personally or seeing them from a distance. And sometimes I can, if it's a friend of mine, I can recreate it or take a picture in the moment. Or sometimes, if it's someone I don't know, maybe ask them to model or recreate it with another model, because it may not be about the particular person, but about a gesture or a feeling or some of their humanity that I'm seeing come through. And I can kind of replicate that same thing with with the model that I bring and do a photo session with. And so after that inspiration, it's gathering reference, and I try to do that pretty quickly after I have the initial inspiration, even if I may not have time to paint it for months, or, you know, I have some things that I have had reference for that I haven't painted for years, that I will still paint at some point. But gathering the reference and, you know, doing a photo shoot, my ideal situation is to get, you know, if someone inspires me that I want to paint, try to paint them from life for a couple hours, even if it's a different kind of pose, and then do a photo shoot with them over a couple days. So just like you and I converse for like a half an hour, getting to know each other before doing this interview, that way you have time to converse with them, get to know them, and maybe do some photos the first day, and then bring them back for a second session and do more photos, because I don't just want to overly art direct to get my idea often when I see who they are and what they do naturally, what develops in the best reference, develops out of a combination of an idea I had and allowing them to just bring themselves to the moment, and that kind of creates this other thing that I couldn't have come up with on my own, these beautiful moments, right? And it might be how someone tilts their head, or how they move their hand, or something that you pull into that and it, and then it becomes this kind of collaboration, so to speak. You know, honestly, I know that it's I also love doing commissions, for that fact, because it's more of a collaboration. But so once I have the reference, then the process between that and painting, and this is something I teach to my advanced online class, is they'll, they'll send in their photos, and I'll teach them what something that I do on all of my reference, that I'm using photo reference for, is I don't, generally don't have one photo that I know, oh, I'm going to paint this photo, right? I will have five or six photos from a session, and maybe take the hands from one or background from another, and kind of combine it, and I'll do it. In Photoshop, very basic Photoshop, because I leave it really rough because I know I'm going to paint it, so it's just equivalent to doing a color study of merging elements, creating the composition, figuring out the parameters of the canvas, and also problem solving and strategizing as if I were doing the painting before I ever put paint to Canvas. And this is a very important part that's not often talked about enough in like a in person alla prima class, but it's something I learned, not in art school, but I learned from being friends with other fine artists that were in galleries and doing this work before I was doing this work, and I was able to observe them and ask them questions in their studios. This is that pre planning, right? You're there are many different ways from a photo that you can compose it, crop it, subdue elements, enhance elements, because it's still very important to get the essential focal point versus the peripheral elements. You know, a hierarchy of importance. What do you want to say in the piece? Right? We don't want to just copy a photograph. We're not a copy machine. But what? What do we want to say? And when you do that same process with photography as you would do painting from life, then often people are like, Oh, you painted this from life? And it's like, no, I couldn't have painted this person in this person in this pose from life. They're walking or they're, you know, whatever. They're out in a forest and there's moving sunlight, and sometimes I'll do a quick little study, but doing, doing those, those comps in Photoshop, some people like to do it in oil paint. Do like little comps. To me, I love to do it on the computer. And I'm like, it's really, really rough. I mean, it could be so much better, but I don't spend time learning how to do photos. I mean, I use Photoshop Elements like a really basic basic because I don't want it to be overly refined or polished. I just want it to be enough of a jumping off point for me to know where I'm going and at that point. And this is what I teach the students, because I do it with their photographs and screen share and and ask them, like, what do you want? And like, ask them the questions, like, what do you want to be the dominant focal point? What do you want? Where do you want the eye to go? How can we orchestrate the rhythms to to bring about that visual story that you're wanting to convey through this piece of art, and sometimes that's dark in an area, bringing out light in another area, things that mimic what a brush would do. And we're we're problem solving, basically, so that when you start the painting on the canvas with your brushes and your paint, you've problem solved 90% of it, and you have a clear idea of where you want the finished painting to go. Then there's the balance of, you know, and I guide them through this where, you know, we work over weeks on certain paintings that they've chosen their own private work, and I share what I'm working on for galleries. And then the process for myself is, you kind of know, 80% where you're wanting to go, you have a clear intention, you've strategized, and you start painting, but I still try to leave that 20% open to the fluid creativity of the moment, because I might start painting and it might start going in a slightly different direction, but I might like that better. And to me, I find it's very important to have that balance and not be so attached to what I wanted to do that I miss out on something even better. You know, there's stuff that comes through. It's kind of like you and I were talking about traveling before we started the recording, right? It's kind of like when you're going to a new city you've never been to. Yes, there are a few key things that I might really want to see maybe there's an art exhibition or a landmark or historical building or something, but I always want to leave in big swaths of time open to wander and explore and discover things that I couldn't have found in a tour book and I don't have, you know, I don't want to over schedule myself, and that's the same way with painting. I want to have a clear intention, a game plan, but I want to be really present through the painting process, and be open to the fluid creativity at the moment, because sometimes that can be just so beautiful. And so that process is, you know, varies the time scale, you know, as you're working through things and and then when I'm like, think I'm almost done, but I want to change just maybe a few things, right? But you've been looking at it for a long time, and that's where I recognize in myself the perfectionism comes in. I'm like, I just want to refine a couple things. The best advice, and I got this from my mom in high school when I was working on a painting. And I was like, just working on a painting for myself, you know, and I would overwork things. And she's like when you are 99.9% done, and you just want to change a few things, leave it for 24 hours. Don't look at it. Leave it. Come back with fresh eyes. If those things still bother you, adjust them. But a good portion of the time you won't remember what they are. Yeah, and I'd say good, 70% of the time I come back and I'm like, I can't even remember what I wanted to change, because I know, like it is done, and that keeps you from overworking, because I get that question a lot from students. And then if something still really bothers you, then you come back and you can see it clearly, you know. So that's my process. Sorry, long answer.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:21

Oh, but, I mean, I think I'm sure there's even more, right? It's one of those, well, kind of like, yeah, I can do the basics because, you know, it is, it is, I feel like it. You might have the same or similar process every time, but it always maybe changes a little, right? And like how you said, you know, you might start a painting, and then it might deviate a little bit, because sometimes, you know, and I like to think that with a painting, you're actually having a dialog with the painting itself. And if you try to, like, force your desires onto the painting, oftentimes it will fight back.

Michelle Dunaway: 1:15:59

Yeah, it's like trying to force a conversation. That's why, you know, like, I appreciated you sending me the questions ahead of time, and I glanced at them, but I actually didn't thoroughly read through because I'd rather just as have a dialog. I feel like that's more authentic. And, you know, you don't pre plan what you're going to say. And you know, I think it is important with with oil paints, because, you know, there are technical things that can just, you know, you don't want to put a lot of white paint in a place where you're going to have a shadow so there, you know, you do need to strategize and plan, but it's like the minimal amount, just so that you feel comfortable to start jumping in and exploring that. And you know, one other thing I'll mention about the process of why I like doing these comps on computer is, you know, we all kind of have our highest creativity at different times during the day. Like I'm kind of a night owl. So I know early mornings, not the bit, you know, before nine, not the best. You know, I also at right around sunset, that hour around sunset, I just want to be outside. I want to take a walk or look in an art book. And I'm just like, unless, like, I'm drinking a lot of caffeine, you know, my mind starts to wander and I'm not as focused. You know, beginning of the day, middle of the day, and late at night is my times to paint. So in the mornings, when I'll, you know, do my emails, or do pre planning work. Or, you know, at sunset, go for a walk, or I'll do the pre planning work. So you know, our best varies from day to day. Or you could be sick one day, or maybe you have appointments and you don't have enough time to paint. That's a really good time to kind of work on these comps and do something creative that doesn't actually involve like, getting out all your paints and painting. And you know what I tell students that work with me is, like, I keep a folder on my desktop every year of like, painting ideas. And those are the finished comps that I've done. And you know, some are really rough and but I'll throw them in there. And these are all painting ideas. So at any given time when I feel like painting, I can go into that folder and I have things ready to go, and it really carries over, because I have more in there than I can do in one year. I might have like, you know, 80 ideas in there that I've kind of flushed out and thrown in there, that of things I want to do, and maybe I only can paint 30 of them, you know, and then they carry over. So I have stuff that like from 2020 in my folder that I haven't painted yet, you know? And it's just like, so you never run out of ideas. But, you know, I find doing those little things on Photoshop, you're, you're thinking about painting, and so you feel really, um, inspired creativity, creatively, you know, to to do it, and that's a good thing to do when you don't have a lot of time, you know. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:18:42

yeah, that's a, that's a really good point. It's a way of, you know, keeping that creative aspect without necessarily the time or the pressure. It's like, oh, well, I don't have time to actually lay out my paints and do all of this stuff, but, but I can do this, yeah, which still feeds into the actual process. That's really good. Yeah, it's a really good side thing to add, because it's it can also be important for the process to have a nice, you know, like, Oh well, I already worked out, like, values and the composition and all of the complexities. Now it's just take it, yeah, I think that's I might, I might try that if ever I start doing like, photo shoots with models, since I'm on the same boat. But yeah, and then, actually, now I'm really curious to know what the transition was like for you to go from, you know, having painting as like, a side thing, or as a like, I have a day job, but I'm painting. What was it like for you to transition into becoming a full time artist?

Michelle Dunaway: 1:19:49

Yeah, sure. And I just thought too, because you mentioned drawing. Sometimes I will do a charcoal drawing before I do a painting of the same subject, and often, if it's a commission. And like the one I just finished, I'm going to give them the charcoal drawing, you know, or the charcoal drawing before a painting that I'm sending to Gallery. You can put both in the gallery, both in a show, and it's, you know, that's always kind of nice to always build your drawing skills, you know. But yeah, so the transition, you know, I went to art school, and I originally went for illustration, and then it was very pivotal when I realized that, like I became exposed to John Senior Sergeant, went to the met for the first time, realized that I really wanted to do fine art painting, and but I, you know, I knew I wanted to do that, and I started taking, like, painting classes at just like a local school, where we paint in front of the model, and I mean, a local place in New Mexico. And knew I didn't want to go into illustration at that point, but do these fine art paintings, and so I was doing that in the evenings. But I, you know, needed to have a regular job. And I love working with kids. And I, you know, worked at this preschool, and then as I worked there, doing the, you know, helping people with the breaks, like I said, then they had, it was a private elementary school next to this preschool, very small elementary school, and they had this after school program, and they said it's just the kids hanging out. They would just play on computer or just sitting, you know, around and play with toys or whatever. Before, you know, for me, just like third grade to sixth or seventh grade, for the parents to pick them up, and they said, Would you like to, you know, do this program? Because the teacher's leaving. I was like, okay, and I'm sitting there and the kids are just playing on computer and not doing anything creative. And I took out a big, you know, stack of printer paper and a black magic marker, and I started drawing. And, you know, the age range was, you know, very vast through these kids. And I would draw, I made them their own coloring book pages. Like one kid was like, oh, I want Ninja Turtles, you know. So I would do that, you know, or I'd do an elephant, or I do a person, and then they'd color it in. And then they started getting really into the art. And pretty soon they weren't playing on the computer, the computer games anymore. They wanted to do art. And so we would draw together. And then it progressed to like me setting up, you know, easels, because they did have easels, and I had set them up face to face. So they painted each other's self portraits and things. And it was basically like, I could, I could spend that two hours doing whatever I wanted to do with the kids. And sometimes I would sit and sketch them too as they were sketching. And they were fascinated with seeing me sketch portraits from life. And then one day, one of the parents came in, and they were like, Oh my gosh, I love and it was just a little quick 30 minute sketch I did of her son, you know. And she's like, I would love I love that. And I was like, Oh, here you go. I didn't really understand about portrait commissions at that time, because I wasn't exposed exposed to that. She goes, would you could I pay you to do a big or, like, charcoal or drawing? So I started doing charcoal drawings. I wasn't even doing oil paintings at that time. So many of the parents wanted them, in the daycare was like, you can put up a flyer, you know, and I was just selling them so fast I had more work than I could do. And then some of them wanted paintings. And, you know, it just I realized at that point that I could transition. And it was into doing it full time, and it was hard, because I did love teaching. And you know, transition to me into teaching adults painting, which is something I was actually doing in the evenings a couple times a week, teaching at the school that I was going to they asked me to teach figure drawing because I'd gone to school for that. So I was teaching adults in the evening, kids during the day, and then they just started transitioning into doing art full time. And I was just in a day with commissions. And I loved doing commissions. I loved working with people and painting the particularities of a human being and and then, you know, getting into the gallery work. There were a couple things that happened where I was in Santa Fe just walking around and in one of my favorite galleries, and struck I was trying to get in the gallery. Did not have a body of work, you know, I just done these commissions, and was doing some painting on my own. And the gallery owner was so nice, and they were like, Oh, do you have a website? I didn't even have a website at the time, you know. And they're like, do you have pictures of your paintings? And I showed them, they're like, oh, you know, we're doing a group show. We'd love to have you in the group show. And it was like, Oh, okay. And simultaneously, at the same time, I took my first workshop with Jeremy lipking, and it was his first workshop he ever taught, and it was just like a two day workshop, and I got to know him and his wife and and then he was teaching another workshop that was longer in Taos, New Mexico, and I took that as well, and I brought in a painting, I taken a photograph of his wife in the first workshop. And I thought, I'm going to bring in a painting of his wife for him to critique, because then it's not critiquing the subject matter, because he knows subject matter, he's just critiquing the. Skill, you know, and I really wanted to learn. And so I brought that, and I'll never forget, he looked at it a long time, and I was getting really self conscious, and he wasn't saying anything. And, and his wife, Danielle, said, that means he likes it. It's good. It's good, you know. And he made, you know, just gave me, like, one suggestion, and, and he really liked it. And then, like, the next day, they decided they wanted to buy it, and I hadn't even thought of that. I didn't even know what to sell a painting for. She's like, here, this is how much you should sell the painting for. And she is very generous and so sweet, and they've become very, very close friends. And she said, you know, you should come out to California. He's, you know, going to be teaching another workshop. And I had a friend living out in California, and and Jeremy and his wife said, you know, you need to be in galleries. I'm like, Oh, I don't think I'm ready, you know, I'm just, I never felt ready, you know, at that because I was still, like, entrenched in being an overachiever, perfectionist, you know, still an overachiever, but I I pursue excellence instead of perfection. Excellence is faith based. Perfection is fear based, you know, I've learned that since then, and excellence, you know, you just keep going and you learn more and grow and put stuff out there so that it blesses people. So Jeremy showed the painting he bought to his gallery in Beverly Hills, and they invited me in to a show based on that one painting. And so then I put work in that show. It sold opening night, they invited me in the next show. I came out for the show and was visiting a friend, and they said, Just stay out here and paint. And so I stayed out there and slept on my friend's couch, and just i That's when I met a lot of other painters my age, and I realized that this was a movement. This was like in the early 2000s and it like a movement, a resurgence of realist art and painting, I'd say representational art, because it's not painting like a photograph. But, you know, painting is similar to like the French naturalist, you know, like Dave mountain, Bovary and you know some of these, you know, Emile free, aunt and these, you know, like painting how you see life and, and I painted with Jeremy regularly, and made other friends out there, that friends that I'm still to this day, you know, friends with, and that are painters, and well known painters now is too, and that's kind of how that transitioned. And like very soon after getting into that gallery, one of the first days, he would set up a model for us to come paint in the gallery. And sometimes during shows, we would paint in front of the patrons. And the editor of American artist magazine was in there, Steve Autry, and he saw my work and and put me in an article. Then the Southwest art contacted me for their 21 under 31 and put me in that and, and then that, you know, at that age time, there wasn't like the social media we have now. It's, I think, a lot easier for artists to get their work seen, which is great, but you had to get in a magazine, you had to, you know, be seen by galleries. And it just kind of took off from there. But, yeah, initially it was commissions, and I still do commissions, and I still love it, you know, but I only do a few a year, you know, maybe even a couple, just a couple of the year,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:28:16

wow. And I really love that quote you said about pursuing excellence, because I relate so hard with being a perfectionist. And it's, it's interesting how, over time, you know, you realize that perfectionism will take you here, but pursuing something better than perfection, which is just pursuing that excellence, takes you up here, right? It takes you much higher. And you wouldn't think, but

Michelle Dunaway: 1:28:43

sometimes perfectionism keeps us from working because we don't feel ready, we don't feel like we can do it well enough. We're not, you know, it keeps us stuck, right? But excellence, I feel, is something everyone can reach for. And that was something that Richard constantly said, you know, pursue excellence. Pursue excellence, you know. And just that's something that, to me, not only fosters creativity and you bringing your best to the moment, but it also encourages exploration. It encourages growth, and it's, and it's, again, it's really, you know, excellence is very faith based. It's very Spirit based, to me, to pursue. And you're putting goodness out into the world. You're putting excellence out into the world. You're putting inspiration out of the world, where perfectionism is more fear based, ego based, like, what if it's not good enough? What are they going to think? What are they, you know, all that stuff that completely blocks creativity. And I think if anyone is blocked in creativity, look at what you're thinking. You know, your mind is a palette, just like your your palette is a palette. My palette is very dirty now, because I was painting yesterday, but and I did clean my problem. I went to bed, but I always tell students, you know, we have to keep the palette of our mind clean too, because we know muddy color on a palette. Scrape it off, otherwise it gets in your painting. Muddy thinking also gets in the way of your best work. You know, we've got to, you know, when we're human, we're going to have fearful thoughts. We can't, we can't avoid that, but we can recognize the moment we have it, or a self deprecating thought, or a perfectionist thought which is really rooted in, you know, like negativity, we can replace it with the desire to pursue excellence in a faith based thought, a kind kindness to ourselves. Like, why am I feeling that I want to be perfect? What I really want to do is capture the purest form of expression in an excellent manner that I that I can artistically, and that you can feel it when yourself, when you change those words, you can feel yourself propelled towards creativity, rather than afraid to pursue it. You know, totally, totally,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:31:08

yeah, that's such an excellent point. But, yeah, it's so true. Because, you know, when I do think of like professionalism, it almost feels like I don't even like, it's like, you can't even leave your house until you look good or like your shoes perfectly match, I don't know whatever outfit you're wearing or your makeup is absolutely perfect. It's like, well, you're never gonna leave your

Michelle Dunaway: 1:31:34

house, you know. It's like, I thought about that the other night when I wanted to go out and, you know, of course, I'm gonna have to be out by an area where there's traffic to photograph the sunset, and I'm like, I'm literally in my pajamas because I was going to go to bed early. And I'm like, I don't care. I'm going out in my pajamas and slippers, because if I take time to get dressed or even comb my hair, I'm going to miss it. And I don't want to miss one morsel of like this beauty and of life, you know? And we do miss stuff when we're trying to be

Laura Arango Baier: 1:32:00

perfect, yeah, and that also, you know, that I feel like, if everything was perfect, right? If it's kind of like, you know, the brain, when it's exposed to like a person whose face is like, perfectly symmetrical, it almost feels wrong, like it just doesn't look right, or it's like, not something your brain remembers there's, there's a beauty in those differences, those little like imperfections that make that thing look more beautiful, right? So, I'm sure someone saw you taking those pictures. They were driving by. They'd be like, Oh, that's interesting.

Unknown: 1:32:35

You know, that's like, look at the sunset, because they saw someone in their pajamas that look cute exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:32:40

She's got a point there, you know, like, there's, there's more to just, like, Oh, let me just perfectly dress up and perfectly do my hair and be like a robot. Like, that's boring,

Michelle Dunaway: 1:32:48

yeah, and what you were saying about the perfectly symmetrical face, it reminded me, I, you know, there was something I saw years ago that really helped me in my art, and it was in a different art form. I was watching the director's commentary of Pride and Prejudice, the one with Keira Knightley. I think it's now 20 years old, 25 years old. Whoever get that? Because I saw something, I know that it was like their anniversary. They were doing the interview, and I was like, no, like, every director's commentary is fascinating. There's a lot of different artistic things that I pulled from that. So if you haven't watched that all artists, I highly recommend it to even just the color palette he used and certain things he did to enhance story and your relatability to character design and color tones, and, you know, flesh tones. And, yeah, it was really fascinating. But there was the one scene which I'm sure you remember the ball in the ballroom, and, you know, and it was a continuous shot. And he said, you know, it was something he wanted as a director, his kind of nerdy, geeky thing as a director, to get this continuous take with hundreds of people and extras and stuff. And they had the camera on a track going from one room to another, and each actor had to hit their spot, their line, their movement, everything to get it right. And if someone messed up, they just started all the way from the beginning because they didn't want to edit it. They wanted, he wanted this accomplishment. And he said it took about nine, I think it was nine, if I remember correctly, like about nine times to get the perfect shot where everyone did everything perfectly. And he said it was so boring that they actually went back and used an earlier shot where someone slightly messed up because it had more life to it. And that was revelatory to me, when I heard it that really like, kind of cleared out that last little gripping of perfectionism in me, because perfectionism is boring and everyone's idea of perfect is different. Now I find so much more beauty and excellence and authenticity, right? And authenticity is so much more powerful than perfection, you know, because it has this power to propel emotion and. And so, yeah, watching that, that was, that was really powerful.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:35:06

That's, I love that because, Oh, I love that movie so much. I'm going to have to watch it with the commentary, and it makes perfect sense. I mean, like, there's again to bring it back to, like, having a painting, that's where you can kind of see the beginning stages, right? It's that mystery. If everything is perfectly spelled out, then there's no there's no digging, there's no looking for something deeper, right? And I feel like, of course, that's what painting, but that's also with life, right? That's like, oh, there's, there's something more that I want to dig into. And that's where the I feel like, where poets get inspired and where artists get inspired isn't that I want to understand this, and it feels like a rabbit hole, and it's just deeper and deeper every time. But yeah, totally, totally. And then also, I did want to ask you, because, of course, there is the mundane, boring part of Bay day, which is, of course, making a living. And I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned how you know, in the early 2000s it's all about being in a magazine, word of mouth, and like you know, being known in that way. Today it's seen as social media. What ways have you found have helped you sell your work? Has it been only galleries, or only social media, or a bit of a blend of different things.

Michelle Dunaway: 1:36:25

Yeah, I think it's pretty much an equal blend, you know, because, I mean, one of the things with being a fine artist, you do have to get used to, like, there's an ebb and flow, and it is good to be in several different galleries. I mean, nowadays, people sell the work directly on the internet, and that's something you can do as well, too. I don't do that except for commissions only, because I established with galleries, and they work really hard for me, and so I want to honor that relationship. But I know artists that are starting out now that aren't in regular galleries, and they sell work directly, and I think that's fine, you know? It's we just want to always honor the relationships we've established, you know, and you know, from for myself, back then, it really did start with galleries, and it was, you know, important to have galleries that have different peak times throughout the year for their tourism, for people to see. It's not as much as a concern now, because online, like people will still buy online through the gallery, even if it's not a time that they would. That they would actually go visit the gallery in person. I think online sales are so, so big now, you know, but so I have several, several galleries that I supply work through, and just because I've been in galleries a long time and have a regular collector base. And, you know, they always bring in new collectors, and that's really nice. And of course, any magazine article you know that comes up will will then, and the, you know, there's the physical magazine. I'm glad they still exist, because I still like to flip through like a physical magazine, and but then they have the online version too. And so people see your work through that, and then can contact the galleries. But also, you know, there is a huge promotion through social media. You know, you post a painting, and often what happens is, I'll post a painting that I'm doing for a show for a gallery, and someone will see it through my post, and then contact the gallery and purchase the painting. You know, or a collector comes in the gallery, sees one work, and then they go to your Instagram, and then they are familiar with more work, and then they might commission you to do something too, you know. So it's just, it all intertwines and works together. I also think, you know, entering contests are important. I mean, I don't think we need we have to be careful not to be attached to the results of the contest, because so much of it is subjective, you know, but definitely for me, a huge thing was getting that that first painting as a finalist in portrait society that really put, you know, put my work in the eyes of A lot of people, and I had a lot of galleries contacting me after that that I kind of had my choice from. But there's, like, the BoldBrush contest. You know, Raymar used to do a contest there. There's a lot of online contest. Some of the art magazines do online contests where can even be sold work that can go into that. And I think the BoldBrush I always tell students to enter the BoldBrush contest, because I think that's great. It's a very minimal fee. It gets a lot of exposure. And you know, some of the people that I've talked to that are gallery owners and or work with galleries, they actually look to see who, who placed us fine, not even who won the grand prize, but who placed his finalist? Finalists. And they find new talent. They invite those artists into group shows, you know, and they look at these online contests you know. And I did have someone that worked at a very prominent gallery say that they reach out to BoldBrush finalists at for the new up and coming talent. It, you know. And so that's that's something to just enter as much as you can, you know. But again, you might not places finalist one month and the next month you could win grand prize. And, you know, it depends on the judge. And it's all subjective, partially objective, up to a certain point, and then it becomes subjective, and it's, I've judged a few contests, and it's one of the hardest things to do because, you know, one of the most recent ones I had done was like the plein air competition, you know, online and and I look at all the objective things, like values, edges designed that only narrows it down to maybe 60 paintings, and you have 12 awards to give out. And at that point, it's really hard, and you want, you wish you could, as a judge, reach out to the person say, I just, I had to pick one here, you know, but your painting was amazing. Or sometimes you pick an artist, you don't know the artist name. So there was one instance where I had picked the same artist for two different categories. The two paintings were very different. I didn't know it was the same artist. And they're like, we can't award the same artist. And I'm like, Ah, that's hard, you know. Because you wish you could tell the artist, you know. I think I even asked them, can you tell the artist, you know? But, but, yeah, so all of it's valid. And I think you know, one of the important things is just to put your artwork out there to be seen, not to get Meyer down in perfection, also not to get really caught up in that, that hamster wheel treadmill of saying, like, oh, I have to post every day, or I have to do this Every day, or I have to follow this formula. Just all I can say is, what works for me concentrate on doing good, strong, competent work. You know, paintings that will stand the test of time, paintings, you know, like, my goal is always to like, try to do a painting that could be in a museum looks like it belongs, at least, you know, I'm not just throwing something out there or sharing it on social media just because, Oh, I haven't posted in a few weeks, you know. But post when you have something to share, and it doesn't have to be a perfect finished thing. I like to post pictures of progress to show to show things in progress, to show, like, even the ideas, the impetus to something of like being outside and finding inspiration and talking about it, because there are a lot of artists and students that follow, not just collectors, and I feel it's that's important for me to share too. It's not just about showing a polished finish, you know? It's what I love when I see, you know, I just went to the sergeant in Paris show at the Met, which is phenomenal. Like anyone who can go see that, go see it, because it goes through, it's very unique, because it goes through his student years, all the way to his, like, culmination into his really big work. But you see a lot of studies. You see studies in watercolor, see studies in oils, you see studies on locations or in the studio, and you see process. This show, to me, was more about process than any of the other amazing Sargent exhibitions I've been to, and it walks you through in this progression. On the other note to that I'll show because I just have it right here, because I was showing my class the other day Richard's new portrait and figure book, which just came out. He was working on this for several years before he died. This was his like kind of dying wish to get this out. And the process of looking through this book, some of these go back to the 60s, you know, and then go up, you know, into current day. And there's lots of drawings, lots of paintings, you know, all throughout his life, some personal work, some commission work, some gallery work. And I got the same feeling I saw the book first online, because Nancy shared, you know, with me, and we walked through all the images online, and I saw some of it in person with Richard, as he was showing me, and some of the images, and I'd say 80% of this has never been seen before. These are images that have not been reproduced even in a magazine, because he had such a huge, you know, body of work. And when you walk through, you just feel like you're moving through a piece of music, you know, flows from, like, different time periods, and it's this progression of someone's life. And it's just so powerful. And I felt that through the sergeant show as well. And it's interesting that they're both this just came out and that just opened, you know, at the same time. And I think Richard would smile at that, you know, hopefully Sergeant too, you know. But walking through Sergeant's work and as it progresses through different stages of his life, I could recognize certain stages that I've gone through and am going through and have yet to go through, you know. And it's just this, you know, when we fall in love with. That process of becoming an artist, we're basically sharing our observations of the world. That's how we create a body of work. We don't, you know, sit down and just say, I'm going to do a body of work, but if we're really authentic and attentive to what's capturing our attention each day and painting that with as much honesty, integrity, authenticity, excellence, as we can we end up with a body of work, you know, that reflects our sensitivities, you know, and what moves our spirit. And you know, that's what I hope to do for the rest of my life, until I'm no longer here and and it's what I try to help teach people how to tap into that, because that was as much, if not more of a part of becoming a professional artist than learning the techniques is to Try to understand how to excavate that in myself and and really steep myself in that authenticity and share it and not be afraid to be seen and share it with the world, even if it's imperfect, you know, because we're moved by authenticity and others, we're not moved by perfection, you know, yet sometimes we're scared to share that in ourselves and in our work. And you know, it's something I valued and admire in both Richard and Nancy's work, in Sargent's work, is there is an honesty and authenticity, and even in an unfinished study, you know, it can be so moving. And, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:46:38

yeah, totally. And again, you know it's that I feel like, you know, every single time I discuss painting with someone like you who's really introspective and really thoughtful about it, it's like, it always just reminds me how painting is so much a microcosm of a macrocosm, where, you know, there's like, like, don't be a perfectionist in your work, but also that don't be a perfectionist in terms of how you present yourself, either. Because, again, that's like, of course, it's easy to look at Sargent paintings or Richard's paintings and say, Oh, my God, he was always perfect. It's like, no, he was not born with a paintbrush in his hand, yeah. And knowing how to paint, right? He went through all the stages, and he went through the whole learning process, and he probably went through the exact same mental blocks that we all face as artists in this career, because it's, they're like rites of passage that we go through, and it's inevitable. So

Michelle Dunaway: 1:47:32

exactly, I often think that, like, you know, there was a time where Sargent was doing his first big portrait and stood in front of this canvas and was probably scared, like, I don't know if I can do this, you know, every artist in existence have had their firsts, and I think the goal is just to keep having those those first moments and challenging yourselves. You know, it's like I heard someone once say, if you remember your last bad painting, you're not painting enough, you know. And, yeah, so. And I remember Richard saying, when it was on before I met him on the captain's portrait video, which they have remastered and put out now again digitally, which I'm looking forward to looking at just in the past year. He says at the end, when he's talking, he said, painting is never easy. Sometimes, you know, there are those paintings that sometimes fall off the end of your brush, but it's always hard work. It's always concentration, he said, but the more, the more you do it, the less you turn out the turkeys, you know, but there are still those. I've even seen some sergeants where it's like, okay, those were in the back of his closet, probably. And now I've gotten excavated, and it's like it but it's so helpful to see that to me. It's like I saw 90% of the time Richard, just with his bravado and knowledge, just whip out a masterpiece. But there was another percentage of the time I saw him get frustrated, wipe it off, redo it. Wipe it off. I learned more those times watching that. And one of the things I so admire that speaks to his integrity is when he painted my portrait, and he wasn't originally going to turn it into it wasn't done with the premise of turning it into an instructional video. It was just to record, and he was learning how to record, and Scott Burdick was showing him how to do that so that he could record for posterity. And he asked I was supposed to paint with him that day, and he just asked me for the moment, and he's like, Would you mind modeling for us, you know? And I'm like, sure, yeah, I painted with him a bunch. And, you know, this was in 2015 if I remember correctly. And so I sat in Nancy's studio, and him and Nancy and Scott painted me and and then I came back the second day, and he did, you know, just a little bit more the second day. And the video was so good, he decided to turn it into instructional video, and then did a voiceover for it. But what was really interesting is, and I know, because I've had other people paint me, is that I don't think I have typical like my. Nose is a little longer. My mouth's a little fuller, like, I don't have typical spatial relationships, and they usually find it hard to paint my nose and mouth, you know, I don't have one of those like, to me really nice noses. I like to paint with angles. Mine's very round, you know, there's no like angles to capture shadows, and so it's a little bit of a challenge, you know. And he he painted the nose and eye, and he repainted. He kept moving like he changed it like three times. He changed the spatial relationship of the nose and the mouth, and it was really good the first time, but it wasn't exactly me, like, not exactly. And he moved it. And I think a lot of people would have left it like, oh, that's close enough. And I really admired his dedication to excellence, again, not perfection, but excellence, to be like he knew me. We were really close, you know, I mean, one of the things that moved me, you know, after he passed, is his own daughters both said to me, individually, he was, you were like a daughter to him, you know. And he really wanted, it was the one time he was painting my portrait. He really wanted to capture that. And I know that feeling of why I've painted his portrait. I want to capture exactly who he is. And so he moved it. And so there was this debate, not by him, but at afterwards, Oh, do we cut that out of the video? Right? I heard some people talking about it. Do we cut this out of the video? Because that's not normal for him to redo that, and I'll never forget he he came in, and while the people were discussing that, he said, Absolutely not. I think it's really important to show people, excellence does not mean that you get it perfect the first time, excellence is knowing you can fix it. And he just grabbed his coffee and walked out. We were like, Oh, that is so beautiful.

Unknown: 1:51:58

It's so true. That is so true. Oh, man, because actually,

Michelle Dunaway: 1:52:01

it was confidence, sorry, not actually. Confidence is not. Confidence isn't knowing you can get it perfectly. Confidence is knowing you can fix it. And then he spoke about the excellence of getting it accurate. And yeah, and to me, the confidence and excellence go hand in hand, but I love that. It's so he wasn't worried about his ego or what people would think of him or being perfect, even though I would say he was that perfect excellence 90% of the time, way more above the average of all most of us. But he wanted to show he was willing to be vulnerable and show that for a teaching moment. And that to me, I already thought so highly of him, but that just elevated, like his integrity in my mind, that he wanted that, because he knows we all struggle with that, yeah, sometimes, and I remember as he was adjusting, that he didn't get frustrated, he got joyful, like, oh, I'll just get it better the second time. Let me, you know, change this. And I, I learned a lot just listening to that. And I was able to watch it because he put a big mirror behind him so I could see what he was painting. Because, again, we didn't know it would turn into a video, you know. And now anyone can watch it, but it was just, it was so educational for me to see him not get frustrated with that process.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:53:23

Yeah, yeah. And again, it's that, that quote that you just said, that he said it's, it's really ringing in my head, because when I feel like a lot of the fear that young artists have, especially when they're just starting out, is they don't quite know what they're doing, and that's totally fine, that's why you practice, right? But when you reach a point where you are you know much further on, with a lot more experience under your belt, you will always eventually reach a point where you still don't really know what you're doing. But hey, you have all of these tools that you've gathered that give you that confidence and be like, that's fine. This isn't new in the sense that, like, I know that I can trust my abilities to overcome and to get it, even if it takes me 28 tries and I have to wipe it off and wipe it off and wipe it off like there's no shame in wiping off. And I feel like when, when someone's a beginner, they're always ashamed or afraid, usually of, oh no, I gotta start over. Oh no, I feel defeated. Oh no, it didn't look right the first time, so I'm gonna do it again and again and again. But it's still not hitting. It's like, Yeah, that's fine. That's how you learn

Michelle Dunaway: 1:54:36

confidence. And if you realize, like, learn to recognize that you know, anytime you feel fear or shame, it's just a marker that you're out of alignment with your True Nature. You've you've dealt into the ego. And I don't mean ego as identity. I mean ego is like who we think we should be. You know, I feel like spirit is. Our true identity, you know, and who we are. You know, the essence of ourselves is is always curious, always creative, always believing in the best. And when we step into fear, we're stepping into a false identity, right? And that will trip us up when we're trying to work and discover and so I think, you know how you were saying that, I think is so beautiful, is that, like, that idea of, like, I don't know what I'm doing, or I don't know what to do. You know, over the years, we accumulate things where we're then sometimes, yeah, we see a model. We're like, I know what to do for this, but for the most part, we're especially I'm pushing myself to do new work, and we always want to push ourselves to grow. We we don't know how to do it, you know? And I'd say to just to switch, instead of making it personal, like I don't know what I'm doing, which is a self defeating thought to then think I don't know how to do this, but I'm going to figure it out, and I'm going to play with it until I figure it out, and it's going to be a discovery, right? And then everything becomes an endless discovery. And that's how we grow and, you know, and learn and adapt to new techniques. And I remember what I don't know, if you're familiar with the artist, John Coleman. He's a Western painter and sculptor, amazing, both painter and sculptor, and I had taken like, a sculpting class with him. We taught at the same school in Scottsdale, and so I went in and was able to audit his class, and I really wanted to get into sculpture. And he's just an amazing human being, incredible artist and but like, Richard, just a wisdom. You want to follow him around. And, like, as soon as they start talking, like, turn the tape recorder on on your phone, because they're gonna say something brilliant when they're walking by. And you know, John talked about, he said, the only time as an artist, you should play to your strengths is if you're giving like, a demo on on stage, in front of people in your studio, you should be playing to your weaknesses, which any means by that is like, and he would correlate, there's so much correlation between art and music. He'd say, you know, that's where you riff, that's when you go off, off the, you know, music kind of thing, and you play. But you should also be trying to elevate your weaknesses to your strengths in your own work. That should be your goal if you're playing to your strengths in your studio, work all the time, you're not learning anything. You have to experiment. You have to dive into the unknown and trust that you're going to figure it out. You know, like jumping into the deep end, trusting you're going to swim or float or whatever, you know, but you'll figure it out. And, yeah, and that's how we grow as artists, because we don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over again. But I think that really good, you know, kind of litmus test is when you start to feel any kind of shame. And I'm glad you brought that up, because a lot of people don't bring that up when it comes to art. You know, we bring it up in other areas of life. Shame is not in any way, part of our true essence as a spiritual being, you know, having this human experience, you know, with our sensitivities as an artist, and so when we feel it, we know we're kind of out of alignment with our true selves. When we feel fear, we're out of alignment. And it's just it doesn't mean anything bad is happening. It's just that's we're human, right? And I constantly pop into those places when I'm painting, I'm just like, oh, okay, I'm out of alignment. Because when we're in that place of fear, shame, usually we start to go down this road snowball effect of thinking we don't know, technically, what are we're doing, and I'm not as good as so and so, or I don't have this skill or and then there's no recovering from that, right? Because we're thinking we're lacking something that we don't have. But when you recognize that just means I'm out of alignment. So to be in alignment means to be present. Be creatively curious, be in that state of wonder, which is, to me, going back to that quote, being like, you know, a little child, being in a state of wonder, state of discovery, a state of figuring it out, trusting that you'll get there. And then you look at your painting, and you go, Oh, well, maybe this area is too warm or that's too hard of an edge, so maybe if I cool it or lighten it or create this edge, oh yeah, that that's going to take me to where I want to be. And that takes you down the road to asking yourself intelligent questions as a creator. And pretty soon, all of a sudden, you don't judge yourself, right for having those thought, those negative thoughts, you just flip it and take yourself back into a place of like discovery and exploration, and you figure out a solution. And there's always, there's never one right answer. And we tell students, there's like, and I try to tell myself this too when I'm Do you. I was struggling with something to get something in the studio. There's never one right answer. There's always several ways you can solve a problem. And the choice of what's appropriate for the painting, yes, might depend upon nature, the lighting or something like that, but it also mostly depends on what you want to visually. Say in your painting, it's kind of up to you. So what I do in classes, I present students, I go, you could solve it this way, this way, this way, this way, which is in alignment with your vision. And then they pick the one that is, and then we analyze whether it serves the subject and what the overall visual element we're trying to convey. And then choose appropriately. And then it becomes like those, I don't know if you ever do those, choose your own adventure books where it's like, yeah, I loved those as a kid, where you're like, going on this adventure, this quest to the castle, is like, do you go right? Do you go left? And depending on where you turn, to a different page in the book, you know, it's kind of like that. And then it becomes when you and I can honestly say, from experience, the areas I used to dread the most is when I hit apart an unknown area I didn't know how to solve. It is now my favorite part of a painting. It is absolutely my favorite part of painting. I know that might be hard for someone to believe who hasn't experienced that yet or watched that journey, but now I'm like, Oh, I get to learn something new. I get to go on this quest. I get to figure this out, you know, and then it becomes a joy, and then we don't become afraid, and then we keep pushing ourselves to to grow and try new things.

Unknown: 2:01:35

Wow, yes,

Michelle Dunaway: 2:01:38

I'm looking at the beautiful painting behind you, and now I just want to try a really big landscape, because I've never done that.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:01:45

Yeah, I it's, it's insane. Just it's uh, and again, that that brings the point of, like, there's inspiration everywhere, if you know, it's specifically, if it's a type of inspiration that caters to your vision as well, which is important, but totally, totally, wow, wow. I want to Great question some paintings now. Thank you. Pick up some things and it's a painting. Yeah, so since you mentioned teaching quite a bit, do you have any upcoming workshops that you'd like to tell us about?

Michelle Dunaway: 2:02:20

Yeah, yeah. I do, um, so I do a regular, say, regular, semi regular. I'll explain it online workshops, is that, you know, it started during COVID, of course, like everyone did, you know, online workshops, but I have so many international students, or students that, you know, live in other places that have really enjoyed it. And so I still do that on occasion, once in a while, I'll do, like, an all premium online workshop. I don't have any of those scheduled just yet. I might do that in the winter, where I kind of replicate doing something like this, like that I do in, you know, an all premium Head, head and shoulder portrait that I do in, like a four day class. And, you know, we kind of structure it the same. But what has evolved over the years with the input of students is they wanted to see me work on my gallery work, and they have a lot of the same questions that you asked me today, how do you start? How do you get inspiration? And, you know, they just in, and that's unfortunately, you know, not taught in schools a lot. And I can see why, because it's like, it's so involved in and involves larger canvases and different things and a lot of thought process that goes into and strategizing. And, you know, I've shared a lot of it today, but so I realized online I could share that I could videotape myself I'm working on studio paintings, and videotape certain parts of the paintings and help them work on different paintings. And some of the people in my classes are working on giant painting. Some small like some do head studies. Some do multi figurative portraits. Portrait in a landscape. There's, you know, it's up to them whatever they want to do. And I help them strategize from helping them edit their photographs and then meeting, you know, either once a week, every other week, once a month. And this wife say it's regular because I fit it around my travel and my whatever exhibitions I'm working on each year. All those dates change, right? So, like, I'm going to do one in July and August, it's already full right now, but, but I'm doing one in July and August, because I have that time in the studio that I can share that. And then, you know, September, or, yeah, August, September, and part of October, I'm traveling and going to different exhibitions and different things like that. And so I'm not in the studio, and then I might pick it up again in the winter. And I just usually let people know, and, you know, it fills up fast online, but I just let them know, like, maybe a month or two before I'm gonna do it. So if you you know, if you're interested in that, just keep an eye on my website. On my website. I post things on there. I do have an in person all prima workshop that I think still might have a spot or two, just because I just put it up online. And that's going to be in Cape Cod in September, mid September, and. That's at the Chatham Creative Arts Center. There's a link to it, you know, again, on my workshops page. And then I've added a few for next year that I'm very excited about. One is that the booth Art Academy that's adjacent to the booth Art Museum, I think that one's full already. It's in February, if I remember correctly, I look at the dates when I get closer to get closer to all online, but I'm very excited to say I have three in Africa next year. And I'm, you know, I've taught in Africa before. This workshops a little different, because it's the guide is a professional photographer, and he's going to teach some, you know, photography and photo settings for people to get their best reference while we're on Safari. And then I'm going to be painting in between safaris and guiding students with painting and keeping the class really small. It's 12 people maximum. That even includes plus one people that come, you know, like a spouse. So it's like, there it might be eight to 10 artists, probably. And so I can really work one on one with people. We're going to be painting indigenous models in the different areas. We're going to three different areas, areas I've never been to before. One is I have two in May next year. And again, all that you can you can see the whole itinerary my website. One is in Zambia, Africa, the country of Zambia, and each of them have unique regions in Zambia. It's by the Zambezi River, if I'm pronouncing it correctly, and beautiful forests. Baier River, again, it's a mix of gathering photo reference for wildlife, landscape figure, Figure in the landscape portrait, you know, I'll paint a portrait. I'll paint also, you know, a person standing outside in landscape will do some landscapes. I'm going to do some wildlife sketching, sketchbook on Safari. And I really want to teach myself, it would be mostly oil, but I'm really want to kind of teach myself some watercolor and gouache before then to actually take sketchbooks on the safari vehicle, so that's the goal. So I'm saying it publicly, so I have to be accountable. So maybe I'll teach that as well. You know, it's not in the itinerary, but I gotta learn it first. But you know, it's charcoal sketching and stuff, because I feel that's so valuable to sketch, whether it's wildlife or people from life, just quick sketches. And so that's kind of the format for all of them. But yeah, one is in Zambia. The other one is in savisons, which is near Kruger, Kruger National Park. And so that's where you can see all the big five, you know, animals. And then the other one, which I'm really excited about, is in September, and it's in the Serengeti in Tanzania. So the Serengeti is where they have the big, great migration that happens, you know, every year, and you know, all the herd animals, and it's, you know, that one's a little bit more for the adventurous in spirit, because, you know, we take a small plane into the bush, we're going to stay at two different camps. They're mobile camps. I mean, they have their own bathroom, hot water. It's, you know, like, still, you know, hot food, but it's mobile camps. And it's a little bit more like, you know, you're stepping back in time and experiencing that. And, you know, they are filling up fast. There's just, you know, couple rooms left in each and so, yeah, so those, that's what I have scheduled for next year.

Unknown: 2:08:16

So exciting. Oh my

Michelle Dunaway: 2:08:17

gosh, yeah, I've just fallen in love with going to Africa. I mean, it just really felt like one of the, you know, purest, most authentic, elemental places that I've been. And I'd always wanted to do wildlife, but I had never, ever since I was a little girl, like one of the first things I drew was animals, and I, you know, it went to zoos and taking pictures. But I feel like, you see, you know, it's, it's not an animal in its true nature. And I never wanted to really paint animals in captivity. And being out in the real area is just, it's just intoxicating and just, you know, really centering. And I feel put my puts my soul into an alignment so strongly being in this untouched land with animals that are not in captivity. So they're not hostile towards you. They're, you know, very curious. And it's just, it's safe. It's very safe, much safer than I realized. You know, being there because they haven't been treated bad by a human, so they don't see us as predator or prey, you know, not on their food chain, so to speak, and and so felt very safe and very like just as it was meant to be, as existing with animals. And the people I met there that live there have such a joy and a peace and radiate a warmth that is unlike anything I've ever experienced. I mean, I experienced that in different places, but the amount of people that I've met from villages and such that that radiate, that is just, it's really hard to put into words, which is why I want to paint

Laura Arango Baier: 2:09:55

it. Oh, it's beautiful. Yeah. And every time you've mentioned that you're. Or Africa workshops, I'm always like so intriguing that sounds magical, because, like you said there, it's like a different perspective of how humankind and animals still belong to the same earth, and we still share and inhabit the same areas. And it's easy to forget that when you live in you know, very human zones, and you kind of forget about all the other little creatures that are involved in the cycle of life. And it's nice to reconnect with that.

Michelle Dunaway: 2:10:31

And that's something, yeah, that's something that's so unique to that area. And going on safari, because, I mean, I've been doing destination workshops for a long time, I think, you know, since, like, 2012 where he did Italy and France, and, you know, we did it kind of the same, where it was like over a week or 10 days, and, you know, we're going and seeing sites and experiencing the culture, or doing wine tastings at a winery or and painting in between. And, you know, so it's really trying to immerse ourselves in these cultural experiences. And I've always worked with someone who's from that area. My very first time in Italy with my friend Sarah calgano, who's a wonderful artist that teaches out there. She wanted to study with me and brought me out there. And then we kind of developed this itinerary of like, going to places that the locals know about, and experiencing that, and then bringing that into our painting, and paint painting local indigenous people there as well. And but with Africa, you bring the animals into it as well. And so it's just like a another step too. And so it's so beautiful. And I try to you know whether I'm teaching or just traveling on my own. I think just advice to artists out there that want to kind of pursue getting that wide breadth of subject matter in their own work is, whenever I travel somewhere, I try to give myself a couple extra days, even if it's for work or something, you know. And for those artists who might be transitioning from a full time job to doing art, you know, if you if your work is sending you somewhere, can you take an extra couple days before or after and go around and see, you know, where the locals are, and paint some of the local scenery and paint some of the local you know, models you know, that are native and indigenous to that area, you know, and just that they live there, you know, I always try to, like when I was in Italy, paint local Italian people that lived have lived there, you know, and their families have been there for a long time. And then you hear stories about life that you wouldn't hear as a tourist. And we, I just did that in Alaska, in a workshop, we had a native woman who's, you pick model for us, and she's over 80 years old. She didn't even know her actual birthday. And it was such an honor that she started telling stories to my students from her tribes people, and she said, you know, these are these are things we don't normally tell to tourists and people that are just visiting, but she said she loved that our intention of wanting to create art and to honor her heritage. And she's like, I want to share with you, and she shared with us of going hunting for the first time, or the first time she was taken out on a on a date in the tundra with them. You know herds of you know wildlife running by, and think things of like, just stories from their culture, and that was just so beautiful. But that's something you can do, even not in a class you know, on your own as an artist, when you're traveling around, because that makes that experience of whatever place you're visiting so rich to know the history and the people, and that's something then you can imbue into your paintings, and it makes your paintings have an authentic ring to it, rather than just painting something because it looks pretty, you know, I always want there to be a more of an understanding of what I'm painting, you know,

Unknown: 2:13:40

going into it, yeah, yeah. And you can see it. You can see it in the work too, which, of course, is absolutely beautiful. Yeah, of course, there's so many more paintings I want to do, like, I'm just, like, touching the edge

Laura Arango Baier: 2:13:52

of it. So many paintings, so little time.

Unknown: 2:13:55

Yes, yes. That's why, going to sleep,

Laura Arango Baier: 2:13:59

yes. Well, thank you so much, Michelle, for this wonderful conversation. I'm going to be thinking about it for probably months, if not years.

Unknown: 2:14:10

Oh, thank you, Laura. So great to talk

Laura Arango Baier: 2:14:12

to you and get to and I could just talk to you for hours and hours. Oh, yeah, yeah, we can totally continue our conversation. You know, off off the podcast as well. Thank you.

Unknown: 2:14:24

Sorry took us a long time to get together, but I'm glad it was worth it. It was worth the wait. It was excellent. Not birthday, it was excellent, exactly. Yeah.