Susan Hope Fogel: 0:00

If you have a very strong desire and a passion, and you would do anything to get your art done, you would put everything else on hold and to work in your studio to get that done. If that passion exists and the discipline to work you, you will, you'll, you'll, you'll move forward, and you'll keep improving and getting better and finding ways to exhibit and sell your work and so on and so forth. And if you feel you need some work, you know, take the classes. Look for a teacher, finding that teacher who can do that for you, to bring you up to the next level.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:40

Welcome to the bold brush show where we believe that fortune favors a bold brush. My name is Laura ungo Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists in all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights to kick off the new year, we sat down with Susan Hope Fogle, an artist who works primarily in watercolor and oil, drawing inspiration from her natural surroundings in the lower Hudson Valley. She describes her journey into art, from early artistic validation in childhood to pursuing teaching and then transitioning to a full time art career. Susan discusses her exploration of different mediums, particularly her experimental approach to watercolor that allows for spontaneity and happy accidents while reminding us that there is growth within chaos. She emphasizes the importance of finding multiple income streams to support an artistic career, and advises aspiring artists to seek out mentors and continuously learn new techniques. Susan also highlights the value of local community connections and engaging with audiences through open studios and exhibitions. Finally, Susan tells us about her upcoming workshops. Welcome Susan to the BoldBrush show. How are you today? I'm good. Laura, thank you. How are you doing? I'm doing great. I'm excited to have you, because you have a very fascinating trajectory, and you have tried, in my opinion, a lot of things that I want to try, and I think that our listeners will also really relate to, because you've gone through an incredible set of different mediums and different instructors and teachers and fascinating people. And now you've reached this really awesome, dreamy water color style that I'm honestly I'm thinking about trying because I really love the dreamy quality of it, and how you mentioned at one point in our previous conversation that it has you kind of build this communication with your painting, and I'm so interested to hear you discuss that more for my sake and for our listeners, because I think it'll also inspire them very deeply, especially in this new year. But before we dive into all of that fun stuff, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Susan Hope Fogel: 3:03

I consider myself an artist. I try to spend as much time as I can in my studio doing watercolor and, you know, I do oil also, and I have a family. I live in the lower Hudson Valley, so it's quite a beautiful environment. I could walk into my backyard and paint all day if I wanted to. And so I feel I'm in a good place right now for inspiration right out my door and really enjoying, you know, the process of painting and seeing and learning all the time from nature. So enjoy.

Laura Arango Baier: 3:46

That's awesome. Yeah, straight from the source, too. I think that is such an amazing opportunity, too, to be able to just go outside anytime. I think that's any artist's dream is to especially if they do plein air, like you do, as you mentioned, in the warmer months, that is a dream come true, to be able to step outside and immediately be inspired by your environment. Yes, yeah, yeah. And then I did want to know, because, as I mentioned before, you had a very interesting trajectory with your career as an artist, and I'm so curious about it. Do you mind telling us, when did you first begin the path of the artist?

Susan Hope Fogel: 4:27

Well, I always drew. I remember being four years old, sitting on the floor in my den, and my mother was nearby, and I was coloring in a coloring book, and she said, Someday you're going to draw without lines. And I think my brain exploded at that moment. Could not put my head around that concept at all. It was overwhelming. And so I always was doing something. My father was a photographer, and he used to hand me black and white photos, and he'd have inks that I would color in. I was always doing something. Thing as a as a child, drawing in my backyard, or whatever, and in first grade, the only time, the first time I got validation as an artist, was in first grade, because we had to draw faces of each other in class, and I was the only one who knew how to draw noses. And I looked up at one point all my friends were lining up at my desk for me to draw the nose, you know, so that was very exciting. And even in high school, I took as many art classes as I could. And then I at 12, I decided I was going to be an art teacher because I really liked art, and I did not know about being an artist yet. I couldn't see that as a career, but I figured I knew art teachers because I had them in school, and so I went to school, became an art teacher, and I taught for 10 years, and after that, I got married and moved into New York City, and I wasn't teaching at the time. So I had the freedom. I said, Well, I'm in New York City. I'm going to take some art classes and we've had the New York Times delivered every day, and I would pick out my favorite section of the paper to read. And this particular day, I sat down, you know, I have some free time this morning, I think I'm going to go through the whole paper. And going through the paper, I saw this little article. It said drawing for serious students. So that piqued my interest, and I started reading. And it was the introduction of the New York Academy of Art. They were just opening their doors. It was september of 1982 that's how old I am. So I was able to go to classes there. I had a great teacher, and I we were drawing. It was based on the old academies, the guilds, you know, drawing from plaster casts, the whole regimen for to become an artist. And I loved it. I really enjoyed the process, and I stayed with that, and I learned a lot, a lot about drawing. I thought I could draw, but this was like, really drawing, you know, the black and white charcoal on tone paper, and really learning how to create light and shadow and form. So then the school was, had just started. We were in the second story of a of a church on Second Avenue and Seventh Street. At the time it was Ukrainian area, so you can go out for lunch and get, you know, pierogis and stuff like that. But the teacher, the school was not as structured as it was later on, but they did have fantastic plaster casts that we could work from. And so I became disillusioned with the school and decided I'm going to leave. And I went to the Art Students League. And now I was instead of going, you know, so the process of going from the cast to the live figure was part of that, and I studied with Harvey Dennis Dean. He taught me how to use pastels, and I did a lot of portrait work at that time, and but the classes are really crowded. So I went to the National Academy because Harvey Dennis Dean taught there also, and the classes were much smaller. I worked there for a while, and then I think I took a break because I became I was pregnant, and I didn't want to be in the building with all the fumes. And so I, I decided I would, I worked on my own at the Queen's Museum, who had their own collection of plaster casts. And I was working in the in the restoration room with the three restorers that were there who were working on plaster casts. Who were, they were life sized models and replicas of Michelangelo's pieces, pieces from the Medici chapel, like Lorenzo de Medici and dawn and dusk and sculptures like that. That was great experience. And then I took a break, and then had my son, and then another son, and then we left the city, and we ended up in the lower Hudson Valley, which is a beautiful place. And another transition occurred at that time, because I am driving along and I'm looking and following the light as it crosses the, you know, the road onto the grasses. And I'm, you know, I almost drove off the road a couple of times. I said, Okay, I've got to do some landscape painting. This is, you know, and I found a teacher also at that time at the Ridgewood Art Institute. And I worked with, it was John Osborne, and he really developed my painters eyes, you know, really understood. And to understand the concepts and principles of painting. And at the time, my interest was in landscape painting. But one day, I was like, All right, you just finished your landscape painting, and you have no other material. So in the class was set up you there was always a model. There were always three still life or floral setups, so you could do your own landscape painting or the still life floral or figure. And I said, Ah, you know, I really don't like still life painting at all. I did not like it. So I said, okay, but I looked around the room and people were doing these beautiful, beautiful paintings. And I'm like, I I'd never done this, I, you know? I said, Okay, I'll give it a try. And I worked on it. We had two days a week in that class, so I worked one day, and then I came back the next day and I did it again. And then, you know, worked on, finished the painting the next day, and I said it wasn't so bad. Maybe I'll try another one by the third day of painting in the north light, like true north light studio, I was hooked on the light. It was, you know, the depths of the shadow, the luminosity of the shadow, the colors, the the highlights that just sparkled. And I was, I was hooked on painting in North light. So that opened up a whole other world to me that I had not anticipated. And so I did the still life, and I did florals, and once in a while, the portrait also in class. And so that was, you know, that started a whole other avenue of inspiration for me, and I continued to do plein air. But was interesting. When I started the plein air, I think that was the most difficult thing to comprehend landscape painting. It was so many features involved in the changing light and the different atmospheric conditions. I remember bringing in a painting that was a stream that's a few miles from my house, and my teacher said to me, which way was the stream running, whether you're looking upstream or downstream? I said, because the color value is going to be different. I looked at him and I'd like my heart sank. I said, that mountain of learning that I knew I needed to accomplish just got, you know, multiplied. I said, because not only I don't know the answers, but I don't even know the questions I'm supposed to be asking, because I didn't know, you know, it was like looking at a rug, like a Persian rug or something. You look at it from one side, it's lighter, and then you turn around, it's darker. The same concept I had no idea, but I stayed with it, and I really enjoyed that, and I still really enjoy that, because you learn so much about light, and I love and even in my watercolors, it's about the light infusing that subject with the light. You know, that strong contrast light shadow, and it's always a defining point of inspiration for me in my work.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:01

Oh, that's amazing, yeah. And I bet that also really informed your water color work as well. I know that, you know, oils and water color, they differ in a lot of ways, especially in how the colors interact and how you're even applying the colors, right? Because obviously, with water color, you want to protect those lights as much as possible, whereas with oils, you don't really have to concern yourself about that too much. So I I'm really curious about how you ended up with the experimental watercolors that you're now doing, which I absolutely adore. I really love how mystical they look. And I also wanted to ask you how serendipity really played a role in your entire trajectory as well. Okay,

Susan Hope Fogel: 13:46

so the I'll talk about how it went from oil to watercolor. I had a friend, Donna Haley, who was working in the city with Fauci bore at the Art Students League, and one of the students there opened up a it was a loft space in Harlem. He bought the building, and it was five floors, open, open floor plan, no, no walls had been put up in and he invited people from the class to participate and help him pay for the heat. It was very minimal amount of money. He was asking people. And Donna was there with some amazing painters. Well, Paul was there. Paul chimbo, nor Baier waysburg was the man who owned the building. Shazaro Mori Kaplan, which is who's an amazing water colorist, and there were Elizabeth Allison and Catherine Keller Larkins. They were just really amazing artists. To this day. They're still working at that, at that and I come and Donna was like, so overwhelmed. She said, You have to come and see these, the work, these people. Were doing. And I walked in, I'm like, Oh, wow, this is really amazing. I mean, you know when you're touched by something that you're like, you want to be part of that? And nor Baier asked me, and Donna introduced me to Norbert and said, Oh, Susan is an artist, also, blah, blah, blah. And he was like, Oh, would you like to paint here? And I was like, Yes, I would. So this was October of 2015 I think, and maybe 2014 and I eventually ended up coming in to the class, into that building and working with these amazing artists and the ground floor, they set up a gallery space, and we had exhibits there as well. And I would, but I was doing my oils, I would take these big pieces of, you know, Canvas, like four foot pieces of canvas, and tack them on the wall and paint away. And nor Baier would come over says, you know, you you have the opportunity to work with this master watercolors. You should really take this opportunity. I said, Yeah, I think I will. I will, in the back of my mind, it's like, maybe, maybe, because it seems so foreign to me to to make that switch. And finally, by October, by January the following year, I was in the class, and from the day one of playing with those paints, I was, I was really enjoying it. And I had, I had fun with that. So I would, I was in the in Paul's class for a couple of years, maybe, and then working on the watercolor. So that's how, you know, just that introduction by my friend and getting into watercolor. Otherwise I would never have entered that world, which has, you know, it's been very transformative. You know, it's and my students came to the exhibits that I had in the city, and they were like, oh, you should have a workshop in this. You should have. So I got a bunch of my students, most they're doing, some of them, they're doing oil and water cone, some of them only water color now. And they, they just say, it's fun, it's fun. It's there's something about the movement. You know, being in the movement because you have to, you're throwing the paint, you're splattering, you're splashing, you're dripping, you're pulling, you're doing all these things that are, you know, so different than just taking that brush and put and running across the surface. So, but I feel like some of that has filtered into a few of my oil paintings, like I'm more adventurous with the palette knife or something. You know, I have one painting in particular, the dune grasses that I did was the whole background is done with brush, and the whole foreground is done mostly with a palette knife, just hitting, hitting the surface, you know, and it's, I don't think I've done it if I hadn't, you know, had that experience of throwing pain, really using physicality of that. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 17:54

that's so interesting, because it it seems like so opposite to how I would see watercolor, right? Because I feel like watercolors are some of the most careful people I know, and to imagine, you know, breaking those rules, right? Which? Of course, these rules are just guidelines. They they're just there to guide you. But once you break them, and you really set yourself free, it really opens up, from what I've seen in your work and how you describe it, it really opens up this whole other realm of the following, this, this creative thread that you've mentioned, and it actually brings me very beautifully to my next question, which is, you know, how can someone you know, follow that Creative thread that you mentioned to me?

Susan Hope Fogel: 18:41

All right. What's interesting for me in my own experience, for my own own work and trajectory, and my students, and seeing many students is like taking that chance to try something new, out of your own wheelhouse, you know, out of the box, you know, and it opens up something else. It's opens up a new creative thread for you, and the form of expression. My watercolors, you know, if I did the same painting in oil, they would they would not look anything alike, wouldn't look like the same person was doing those two paintings. And I feel like having the opportunity to do that. I think it enriches you as an artist. I think it expands your creativity. I think, I think there's only positive things that come out of it, even if you don't stick with it, but it just, you know, expands your own creativity in on some level, or many levels. One thing that's been interesting to watch in my classes, if I have a student come in who is a real water colorist who's been working in watercolor for 2030, years, they some of them have a really tough time, you know, because I'll come, I'll start the class, and I'll. Do a demo, and I'll say, throw it this, you know, throw the paint. Try not to touch the surface. If you have to make a line, then, you know, if you're going to make a straight line, you might, you know, make it as kind of broken line coming down. But you're going in this drug you're not just going like this. So the inches are really important in this technique. And there are some people just can't do it. They can't break that habit. They'll take the brush and it's, I'm always, you know, I can walk away from them, then I come back and I see that they're back to their, you know, they're using their traditional techniques. I recently did a workshop with 13 people who had come from the world of watercolor, and most of them, I have to say we're able to break through, you know, use the technique. So that was it was really good to see, and they had some really interesting results. Some of them are continuing with me, either remotely or in class. So some people really take to it. Other people are like, Oh no, they can't. They can, but maybe there's another medium that that would resonate with them, and, you know, make something else happen in their lives. I don't know, but I feel a little sad when I see an artist, you know, who, for 1015, 20 years, is painting the same painting, and I'd love to see, you know, little expansion, a little experimentation. That's why I called it experimental watercolor, because it kind of releases you of, you know, all the old rules it, it's, do what you want, try something, you know, try anything you want to just get that paint on the paper, you know, just and we do talk about the interesting thing is, at the beginning, when I was listening to my own conversation with my students, it sounded like I was in my class with the oil painters. You know, we talked about, we did talk about composition, what's working in this painting, what's not, you know, how can we edit it? How can we improve it? So it's still, I want them to have a good painting out of it. You know, it's not like just throw paint around and, you know, see what happens. But there's, yeah, then some interesting results. And fun part for me is the little surprises that come when you're throwing paint and you have that lack of control, happy accidents, you know, like Bob Ross used to say, right? But the there was some interesting things that happened, because at the end of the day when, if I'm in the studio, and then it's time, you know, the lights getting getting low, and I'm like, Okay, it's time to go in, and I will just take my brush and I'll just randomly throw paint it, you know, different spots in the painting, or I want to make a change. Well, I did that in one day, and I had it was an image of two boys walking in the city, and they looked Asian because of their hair cut. That one cut, you know, and so I threw, I threw paint at them, and one of them, they're walking away from us. So we had the back of the heads. The next morning, when I came in, there was one of them had a face facing me, and he was no longer Asian. He was African American. And I was like that. That was just a crazy thing that happened. That was, you know, one of those little surprises. So then I they ended up turning his whole the rest of his body around. So, because he was so organic, it was just, I mean, the nose, the eyes, the hair, the the jaw line, everything was there. It was just, you know, a very happy accident. It was, yeah, it's kind of crazy. It's happening. But and the students are enjoying it. They're they, they always say, it's fun, you know. And that kind of energy, the dynamic in the room. When you have five people painting and they're all having, you know, a good experience. It's it's very elevating. It's fun. It's fun for me. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 23:51

it sounds really fun. And it makes me a little bit curious about the process too, because you bring up an excellent point, especially when you said, you know how there are a lot of people who, and it's totally fine. I mean, people get into a comfort zone, but after many years of painting, they get, you know, they get settled, like you said, they get a little bit settled into maybe painting the same thing over and over, or they become comfortable with their own, I guess, equation, right? Because they know how to get from point A to get from point A to point B and get the results that they want, which is totally fine. I mean, I know there are a lot of galleries who really love that, because they know what to expect. So, you know, bringing up the idea of, no matter what stage you're in in your career, to bring up experimentation and to allow yourself to, you know, be like a beginner again. It can be so hard for someone who's, you know, quote, unquote, an expert, or much further along their career, who's already gone through a lot of the process, it can be really difficult to really let go and to allow themselves to explore again. And it actually makes me curious about the process of the experimental waterco. Dollars. So I'm assuming you pin up a paper, and maybe, would someone start out with, maybe, like, a sketch of, kind of, like an idea they have, or, like, do they like, go from there and they just start splattering and see what comes up. And then, do you use different opacities at different stages? Right? Be,

Susan Hope Fogel: 25:22

I don't let my students sketch their image. Okay, when I had that, when I did that workshop with these 13 people who have always done a sketch on watercolor paper, because, you know, watercolor, you don't want to make mistakes. The thing about this experimental watercolors that you can we use squash and watercolor. So we have one of my visual aids, is an image of like, eight paintings where I have the first painting on the in the image is a sheet of paper that I had used for a demo piece. It's totally abstract. It's splashes of color. It's wild. I mean, you look at it is, I usually demo how to do a tree, so that's you can make out a tree. But everything else is just this abstract mass of different splotches and drips and splatters and there's nothing there. And then I show the process of how I went from that to two figures walking in Central Park with figures in the background and a dog and trees and lamps and buildings, and you don't see, you don't see a hint of what was there at the beginning. They might, I might allow some color to show through here or there, but nothing there. There's a freedom in that because if they start sketching it out, they're going to be, it's like paint by number, they're going to be wanting to take that brush and fill in all those little shapes. They said, No, this, you know, just, you know, throw it, you know. And if it's something, goes really crazy. We have our spray bottle to erase. We have, we could do, you know, a lot of different things to get rid of, blot up the color, you know, with a towel or a rag. And, you know, in the process, you can get it, but there's so much more freedom when they're doing that. And, and it allow accidents, it allow other things to evolve, and and being and I always tell them, you can start with the reference photo, but don't be married to it. In the process. In this process, in particular, your painting is going to eventually may tell you what it wants to be, and you have to go along with it. So in the process, I'll have them, you know, they'll have their painting. They'll start out in one direction, and I'll have them turn it, you know, in the four different directions, because they might have gotten to a point in the painting where they might have a painting there, or the inspiration for a painting that is so foreign from their original concept, that reference photo or their drawing that they had value study and go with that, because that's what the painting wants to be. You we have to respect that, you know. And that happens a lot. It happens a lot. I've had students turn paintings completely upside down and and work from it. So it's, it's a very interesting process, because there you have to be open to those things, though, you know, and be able to let go of that, you know, the image you had in your in your head. Because, no, we're on a different you're switching paths now you gotta, you're going in this direction because we're following what the painting wants, yeah, so that doesn't have an oil painting. You know, when you start these paintings, it's like, I don't have a road map for you. I don't have, you know, the five steps you have to do to get your paintings. You know, we can follow that. You can follow it. You can, you know, work with the idea of, you know, large shapes and strong contrast, and you can incorporate all those principles and concepts from traditional painting to help your painting, and you should be aware of it. But in the process of getting there, where you want to go is a little different, because it's you're moving in one direction, then you have to back up and turn, you know, there's a lot of maneuvering around to get to the final a lot of times I'll do a painting. And I think my, some of my best paintings are from my imagination. So I've had most more success, I think, with paintings from my not the figurative work. The figurative work is, you know, because I have photos from trips and travels in Europe and and I've done several paintings with that in New York City. I paint a lot from Central Park figures and very shadowy figures. So, but those. Less about the imagination. I'll take, you know, I'll take liberties with the backgrounds and buildings and breaking through wedges and opening things up. But you can look at you say, oh, there's people here. You know. You'll know. You'll know. But I like to infuse some mystery in a painting. Also that that is another aspect that I like to have, not to overly define, you know, everything in the painting. I think letting allowing for mystery, invites the viewer to come in and solve the mystery. What is it, you know, what? What's lurking here? What is that shape? What is that, you know? And then they're trying to figure out is that a cloud or the edge of a building a mountain, you know, it's like it opens, you know, it's more engaging, I think, for the viewer to have that have a dialog with the painting that way, not having every blade of grass painted and every pebble on the shoreline painted for them and so that's not any and the technique allows for that, because if you do get overly defined, you spray it a little, blur it, soften the edges, you know, pull it and you know that you can do things to it to get it, yes, more mystery to it, absolutely. And

Laura Arango Baier: 31:18

you bring up some really interesting points, because you mentioned, you know, some keywords there that I really want to bring up material mystery. He also brought up, you know, these happy accidents, right? And that really brings back what we mentioned earlier about serendipity, right? It's almost like with these paintings, you're really allowing for, for that, that natural chaos to enter the work which is so reminiscent of serendipity, right again? Because for me, you know the way that I define it. I would love to know how you define serendipity. For me, it's you know, right place, right time, right preparation. But how would you say that serendipity has shown up in different aspects of your life?

Susan Hope Fogel: 32:02

I am there's it i There was a time, you know, I was getting a little disillusioned with the traditional painting, and I felt like, well, this came in at a good time, because I didn't want to keep on doing this and repeating, you know, because I got to a certain level, oh, I can do this. I can do this, and I'm pretty good at it. And it's like, what's next? What's the next challenge? And I want to be challenged. I want to be challenged to expand creativity. And so that came, you know, at a good time for me when, you know, I wanted to try something new. I think that's what happens. That's happened a few times in my life where I was working at something, and then, okay, what's next? What's what's next. Now I'm thinking, Oh, well, like, you know, encaustic might be interesting, you know, but you know, there's always something, you know, that I'm thinking about as an as a new challenge. But so the serendipity, I think, came each time when I was ready to, you know, try something new and explore something new, so that, for me, is exciting, you know, it's discovery and the newness, and I think it's marked, it's exciting, you know, sometimes it's extremely frustrating, because you could easily ruin a painting, like, you know, you throw paint and you could easily destroy things, but Then there's so many layers. It's, when you talk about the process, it's a lot of layers, and a lot of students, you know, they'll work for a couple of hours, said, Okay, I think I'm done. And I'm like, No, you're just getting started. Because the more layers, there's, you know, some different things start happening texturally, and the surface becomes much more interesting when you get all those layers going. So that's always fun.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:12

Yeah, and I really love that, because, you know, it goes to show that you've always been so open and receptive to what some people would consider chaos, but for you, it's growth, right? I feel like there's, there's so much growth that can happen when you allow yourself to enter that realm of of what others might consider chaos, that you're so excited by it, right? You seem to be so open to it, where you're like, take me. I want to learn. I want to let my work grow, and I want to grow as well. And that's what it feels like is happening between you and your work, which is really beautiful to see.

Susan Hope Fogel: 34:50

Yeah, it's fun on this side of it, too. At BoldBrush,

Laura Arango Baier: 34:54

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Susan Hope Fogel: 36:33

It's looking forward to like, Okay, what's going to happen today in the studio, you know? So, yeah, it's energizing at times, but it, you know, whenever we paint, there's frustration associated with it, you know, so that, that I don't say that's gone there, there is still, you know, I'll spend it, you know, five hours working on a painting. And like, you know, is it which way is this going? You know, it's, I call it what I used to call it the adolescent phase when I was working in, you know, in the traditional work, you know, you start developing the painting, and there's that one point it's like, oh my god, you know, which way is this going? Is it going to be a total failure? Am I going to save this painting? And it's like giving birth, you know, and like the the toddler stage, the child phase. Then you get to the adolescent. It's like you're pulling your hair out. But you know, and is this going to, this thing is going to warm into a real adult? Or is it, you know, are we going to have a problem here? You know, the problem child? But yeah, so it's the same in the watercolor, the same kind of steps that you go through, the stages,

Laura Arango Baier: 37:44

you know? Yeah, I'm really curious to hear because since, of course, it is very experimental thing, do you often find yourself detached from some of your work because you know that it might not work out? Or do you do your best to help the work along so that it does work out and it does end up being a finished piece? Or do you allow yourself to just play around and not worry about the results?

Susan Hope Fogel: 38:12

I do that, or I'll set it away for a while, and then when I take it out, I might have a immediately, have a vision for it, you know, and then I have an idea for it. But in that moment, I did not, maybe because I was looking at it too much. And I always tell my students, you know, leave your painting here, don't look at it for a week. You know, when you come back, you'll know what to do. And I think, you know, if you look at a painting too much, you just stop seeing and so if I, if I do get to that point of frustration, and I might just put it away, because I have probably 10 paintings that I could finish right now, I I put them away, and then I go back and I forget about them. You know, it could be months and months a year, two years later, and I'll pull it out and say, oh, you know, I could do, you know? So because we we change, you know, we're changing. Our vision changes. Our eyes change. So we're hopefully advancing our skills along the way. And you see differently, and you can resolve things, you know, in a different way. So I never give up. They the painting always becomes something that, even if I've gone outside with the garden hose on jet spray, just wipe off a paint. And then what's interesting is the ghost image that remains is may inspire something totally different than what the painting was meant to be. But I've done that because in, you know, when it's not now, in the winter, but in the summer, I'll have my garden hose out there in the yard, and, and, and I've, I've done that, you know, my students have an area that they're working on, and it's a lot faster than using the spray bottle and, you know, trying to get it off that. Way, especially the big pieces that are, you know, four feet or something. They need those,

Laura Arango Baier: 40:09

I think, you know that is it really, it's really interesting, because from how you describe it, you know, even just that ghost that you mentioned, of the image that's left behind, of maybe something that didn't quite work out how you may have expected, and you might want to rework it. It really makes it sound like the way that you work is very destructive and deconstructed, but at the same time constructive, like it's, it's so fascinating how you how it's, you know, it seems like it comes from a place of pure chaos, and also, you know, little bit of nudging and control. I Wow, I'm really, I love it so much, just for that, because it's, it really does break a lot of the quote, unquote, rules or conventions that we might have about the traditional process for painting, especially if you compare it to oils, like you mentioned earlier, that I can see why a lot of people would struggle to allow themselves to go through that process, because it is, it's, it can. I can see how frustrating it could be for to be so unexpected all the time, like it's so beautiful. Because I think what I like about it, the way that you're describing it, is that there's this aspect of going with the flow. And I don't, I don't also, I mean, I mean that also in the sense that water flows, but, but going with the actual flow of the painting. You know, so many people, they try to fight against that current, when really the best they can do from what you're describing is just to just allow it to go, and then you go from there. I love that.

Susan Hope Fogel: 41:49

Yeah, it's a nice it's a nice process, like, and one of the things I really, I I sense in one of the differences between the traditional painting and this water code technique is, I felt like it was always in my head, in the traditional painting, you know, how do we create form? You know, getting that light and shadow just correct, and the mid tones and the blending and the color and the reflected light and, you know, all those little things, the nuances that we have to remember to create that real image. And in this, I think it, part of it is the movement, you know, the keeping movement and the flow and your body is more involved. You know, you're actually your body is more involved. I feel like it's a more intuitive way of painting. I'm not in my head as much, and there's that, there's a flow to it, you know? And I'm saying the flow, you know, that the flow being in the zone, and all of that can happen in traditional painting also, but it's just on a different level. It's different plane. It's just feels more physical to me than than the traditional oil painting that I was doing. So I think that's part of it. And there's a there's a video approaching board doing his painting, and it absolutely looks like he's dancing. He works with brushes, like 12 inch brushes, because he works on murals that he took three rolls of paper that are 10 feet high and 12 feet wide. You know, he makes this, and he has to work fast and use these giant brushes loaded with paint. And he's like, and he's like, going back for more paint. And it's just, it's a dance. It's really an interesting if you could find that video of him, it's really beautiful to watch. It's the technique, and he's just throwing pings, splattering, and then ends up with this beautiful image at the end. But

Laura Arango Baier: 43:51

yeah, yeah. And I also like how you mentioned flow being different between the two mediums in the sense being allowing yourself to get out of your head and to go forward. But I also like that you mentioned earlier how even these experimental watercolors and how you have allowed yourself to go for it and experiment has also allowed that to happen more in your oil paintings, right? They the two creative mediums feed into each other in that sense, which is really cool. It, you know, I think you know, for our listeners, it would be worth, you know, trying to break free from those constraints every so often, no matter how scary it is to see how that can inform their newer work. Because I feel like your work has definitely gone through these beautiful changes, and this this beautiful transition from face to face. And again, I absolutely love your experimental watercolors and how you've also brought in a bit of that mysticism from the Northern Light, because I'm also a big fan of the Northern. Line that there's just something, oh, there's just something about it. So I think that is so awesome. If a listener wanted to try out something like that, what would you recommend in the sense of, like, you know, trying maybe experimental watercolor, or something of the like, to help them be more intuitive with their work.

Susan Hope Fogel: 45:23

I have a little exercise that I used to do when just for kind of automatic painting, and I would just take drawing paper and and water, and on the drawing paper, I would just very loosely, you know, draw some movement of line and shape. Mostly it's not too much. The whole surface is not wet. Lot of the surface remains dry. You're just making a funny squiggly shape or something on there. And then put in some color, drop some color into those shapes, and then set it aside and let it dry. And then I would take that and look at what I have and turn it and turn it and turn it and see if there's any imagery in there that can inspire a painting. And then many of them get thrown away, and some of them become something, you know, I see figures in there. I seen trees, I've seen swans, anything could show up. I mean, that's a just a loose little exercise to do. And then I would enhance that further with colored pencils and but the experimental watercolor there's, there are some examples online of people doing that, and there are many people doing stuff with throwing paint, you know, at services, but I don't they're more abstract. They are more abstract. Elizabeth Allison has a wonderful video called The pilgrimage on YouTube, and she starts out with an image of people under a canopy, like at a cafe under an outdoor cafe, and ends up with the complete abstract image at the end of the painting. And so watching the process, and as I said, pulling more, has a video of his work. But we use a a heavy paper. We use a 300 pound paper. It's getting, gotten a little pricey. It's doubled in price since I started in 2015 with it. And the less expensive way of doing it is getting a big roll of paper. I think it's like the weight is like 256 or something. It's not as thick and heavy, but it's it can hold up. It can hold up because you're throwing, it gets very wet. We get throwing a lot of paint at the paper, which is part of the process, because the paper warps and it, you know, it's not take down at all, so it's free to move, but there's a lot of movement on the surface as well, which is another thing you can use it, you know, because sometimes I'll the paper will be rippled like this, and I'll drag a brush, and it will only hit, you know, the high points. So, you know, it's another technique to use. It's, you know, you work with what you got going on, right? So, but, yeah, it's just anybody could do it. But problem is, people don't have a place to do it. I don't know if you could see in my studio, there's plastic all over, all over the place, so we have four sides from plastic. It's a, it's it's protection as then, and the floor is just a slab floor. So people can come in and be free to throw the paint wherever they want. We don't worry, you know. But people I said, Well, try, try it in your shower or your bathtub, or when it's nice, go outside and, you know, you could throw can anywhere, because that's one of the big problems. They don't have a place to do it. That's why it gets a little, you know, wild

Laura Arango Baier: 49:00

as it should. And that makes such a great point, too, because, you know, allowing so much of allowing this, this chaos, also is giving yourself the environment for it too, where you're not worried about the environment either. Which can, you know, kind of hold some people back, like, oh, I don't want to get this dirty. It's like, well, then maybe move to an environment where you won't worry about that. It could be outdoors, you know, just really cool. Yeah, nice. And I wanted to ask you now about what it was like for you to, you know, while you're doing all these amazing transitions in your work, what was it like for you when you made the jump into becoming a full time artist.

Susan Hope Fogel: 49:44

I didn't make much of a jump, because I felt like I was always doing that. I was, you know, I did teach for 10 years. That was the only time I had another real job. And after that, was between parenting, when the kid. Was young, you know, more parenting time and trying to fit in. I had a drafting table in my bedroom at the time. We were living in the city, and I was doing something, but becoming full time artists. Now, most I try to devote as much of my time to it, but it was kind of a gradual transition, so it wasn't like a big leap from not being an artist to being an artist, you know? So it was, it's an easy transition when you're doing something you love to do. So that's true, yeah. But I always had, I know one of the questions is always like, well, how can you afford to be a full time artist, you know? And how could you when you're starting out and you know? And I always, you know, like Jack Canfield says, You You need four streams of income. Always, you know. You don't depend upon that one job, you know. So I've developed that, you know. So that's it, makes it, you know, financially feasible. I think that's something that might stop a lot of people from taking that jump, you know, quitting a job and moving into a full time artist, but it's good planning, you know, financial planning and financial security first, and then, you know, and if they're doing what they love and have the passion and the discipline for it, you know, and good things can happen.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:26

Yeah, yeah. Do you mind if I ask, you know, what were some of the or, like, what are some streams of income that you would recommend for an artist who wants to, you know, do something like, how you're describing four different streams of income?

Susan Hope Fogel: 51:41

Well, you need to find residual income streams, because you don't want to put more time and effort into something. Your time and effort you want to keep in your in in your art. I think real estate, owning real estate, which is not in everybody's been not possible for everybody. But, I mean, I see things on Instagram every you know, all the time. Now that you know, you buy a two family or three family house with a low income loan. There's, there are these loans that could be made and and if it's occupied, when you buy it, you have the stream of income to pay the mortgage, you know, but do it if you have the financial wherewithal to do that. I think that's great. I think that's a really a good you don't have to worry about the market going up and down and driving you crazy. So that's that's one thing. And getting older, because you get Social Security, that helps. But I think that's the the best thing is, like finding a residual income stream, you know, so you're not taking time away,

Laura Arango Baier: 52:48

yeah, yeah, that's interesting, yeah, um, because it is. It, like you said, you know, it's good to conserve energy for and and time for the things that you want to actually do, or the things that you know are also going to bring a lot of income, be that painting or teaching, which I know a lot of artists teaching, or they'll do, like online courses, which is something else that could also technically be, you know, like residual or passive income that just comes in, if you know, you're able to have, You know, say, for example, like the social media following and all of that in order to get enough people to buy your course, which is another option as well. Yeah. So you are currently teaching, as you mentioned. How has it been for you to balance teaching and also working on your personal paintings.

Susan Hope Fogel: 53:43

I I've limited myself right now to two classes. I'm trying to hold it to that, but I have, if I have enough people that are interested, I might do three, but they're only three hour classes. So it's six hours right now out of my week that I devote to the teaching. And in addition to that, I might do a workshop, you know, if it's a full day workshop, that might be six hours or five hours for the workshop. So it's not a lot of of my time, but I think I did more in the past, but I've cut back a bit, so I have more painting time. And if I get a day where maybe only two out of five students show up, which has happened, I said, Okay, I could paint two, you know, I'll paint along with them, because I'm not, you know, the helicopter teacher, where I'm at their shoulder all, you know, the whole day. So they're I, I spend, I pay attention to them, but I'm not, you know, obsessed with what they're doing every minute. So it allows me some time, but it's a little difficult to paint when you're, you know, you're constantly having to move away from the painting. You can't stay focused. So my preference is always paint by myself. Mm. Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 55:00

beautiful, yeah. And then I wanted to ask you, what advice would you give to someone who wants to become a full time artist, and how does mindset and doubt, you know, play a role in holding a person back?

Susan Hope Fogel: 55:20

All right, if, if you have a very strong desire and a passion, and you would do anything to get your art done, you would put everything else on hold and to work in your studio to get that done. If that passion exists and the discipline to work you, you will, you'll, you'll move forward, and you'll keep improving and getting better and finding ways to exhibit and sell your work and so on and so forth. And I think it's it's hard to judge your own work, so getting feedback from people who are knowledgeable and getting help and and if you feel you need some work, you know, take the classes. Look for a teacher that I mean my I have a few teachers that change the way I work, the way I see, really is because then, as an art teacher, you're teaching people to see more than teaching them how to paint or draw or anything, and finding that teacher who can do that for you, to bring you up to the next level, keep improving you. And I tell my students, you know, find other teachers to go to. Don't just learn from me, because you're going to learn something different from somebody else to improve your work and find the work of people that you admire, that you love, you know, and take some classes, whether it's online or in person or that that is something to just even at this this age, I'm ready to, I want to learn more. So I'm always open to, you know, taking classes and courses, finding out, you know, because I think the more I learned about art, the more I realized, you know, I had to learn. It was so much,

Laura Arango Baier: 57:12

yeah, oh, that's beautiful, yeah. And you make an all an excellent point as well, about, you know, needing to work on your stuff earlier. How you mentioned, you know, like, if you're passionate enough to work on that, right? And if you free up some some energy, you know, by getting those residual incomes or passive income, that also gives you that, you know, time and energy to really focus on your work, and then also hopefully getting some classes, like you said, from other people, maybe getting a mentor, and then getting another mentor to be able to get those those eyes right, to teach you how to see which, like You mentioned, is so so key in making your work improve, right? Because the best thing that a teacher can give you or a mentor is independence, right? The the ability to see so that you're not always relying on others. But then you also have that paradox where, like, Okay, I know how to see now, but then I'm still kind of blind to my work after a certain amount of time. So I still need, you know, other feedback, which I think a lot of artists struggle with, because we're so we feel so attached to our work, where we feel like it's such a vulnerable thing, and if someone says, Oh, that's not right, we might feel like, Oh no, I messed up. I'm immediately a disaster. But you know, it's not true, and as your work has shown to the you are always growing, you are always learning, you're always improving. And that's the important part.

Susan Hope Fogel: 58:49

That's a fun part for me, you know, making those changes, trying different things. That's the interesting thing for me, because I remember my first class with experimental watercolor, and I call it experimental water. The people call it expressive watercolor, or it's, it's kind of incorporates the concepts of deconstruction also. And that first class, I had four students, and they came from the world of oil painting, because we were painting still lives plein air, so they were all on the same page. And I was blown away by what they did in that first class. It was amazing. It was really amazing. And finding their voice was in I can't say it was immediate in the water, in the watercolor, but it became more apparent a lot sooner than it could in the oil, because of the oil and for myself as well, I felt like, you know, I was painting an oil, and I had my style. People could kind of sell my see my style, but it wasn't that. Had much of a individual expression, and it didn't feel like, you know, maybe it was part of me, but I didn't feel like I can identify like Kathy Odom, or, you know, some other people that you can immediately see their style. You know, I didn't have that in oil painting, but in the watercolor, it happened. So that's an interesting thing to observe in class, because I have, you know, several students now doing the watercolor, and they, they are developing a style of their own. It just, you know, the flick of the wrist, or whatever, whatever it is that gets the paint off the brush. And, yeah, it's really interesting thing to see. I think there's more possibility in that medium and that technique than there is in oil. Because, you know, in oil, we're all trying to get the same, you know, get that paint on it. It's, you know, I get maybe the viscosity of the medium, I don't know what, but I do see people taking oil paint and thinning it out and getting trips and things in it. So that's that's always encouraging to see that. And who is it of the odd you told me about art Nerdrum and he was scraping and yeah, because at one point I said, Okay, now I should. I love what we're painting on panels, on wood panels. And I love the texture of the wood, and, you know, that surface. And now, because I have that ability in watercolor, to pull and scrape and lift and drip, and I said, How am I going to get that in oil? You know, how can I do that? And I probably working on wood would be the the next step for that, you know, being able to actually scrape the whole surface and edges and cutting through edges, lifting it paint, you know, working in layers, and seeing color underneath. And there's a lot,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:52

yeah, yeah, no. And I really, I really love that, because it goes to show that there are a lot of self imposed limits as well, right? Like how, you know, earlier we mentioned how, like, I, or at least I mentioned that a lot of career water colorists are so, so careful. They're so their hand is so steady and it's so hard for them to break out of that. And the same happens with oil paint as well. Where you know, oil painters, especially classically trained ones, will use tiny brushes. The tiny brush people, totally get it. I've been there. I am one of those tiny brush people. It's very hard to break free from tiny brushes. So I understand how you know that could also limit voice, because we are so perfectionistic, right? We have this tendency of wanting to make the thing as it is, as close as possible with tiny brushes or whatever, very steady, you know, perfect drawing, perfect line work, etc, that it's really cool when you realize, wait a minute, I can dilute the heck out of this paint and create layers and layers and layers, because there are no rules. Right? These, these academies, of course, they do teach right? They do teach us the basics, the important rules, quote, unquote, guidelines of how the medium works and how you can manipulate it to a way that is realistic, in a way that will get you from point A to point B, but then once you decide, hey, this is just a guideline, and now I have muscle memory, right, and I can be more free. I think that is so cool, because you mentioned how you reach that voice a little bit a little bit quicker. And I think that's so fascinating, because it's a lot of people compared to handwriting that is so amazing, how even the flick of their wrists can can be so personal that it just comes up. So wow, I think you know that, yeah, that makes a very large statement about the importance of liberation in your own work, and even within your work, you know, liberating yourself from all these glass ceilings we place upon ourselves, which is really awesome. Yeah,

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:04:10

perfection, if any. Yeah, I'm, I'm perfectionist in a lot that I do, but in this technique, I maybe look for the imperfections more than the perfection, because the and the edges are really important in this technique. That's what gives it that dream equality. Because the edges are never I if I see a straight line in the work my students are doing, I said, You got to get rid of that you got it's kind of ambiguous, you know, like, where does that edge end in the next shape begin. And, you know, because it's a shared edge, but it's, it's not defined. It's very soft, and sometimes it disappears, you know, like in painting, in any painting, doing lost edges and found edges and hard edges and soft edges. And, you know, so it's a. Of that, you know, to blur the edges. You know, like, concept of, it's all one. You know that weaving together of Faso, weaving together of, you know, form to background and background of, it's like, Where does one begin and one end? It's, they're, they're together, yeah, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:22

And even even conceptually, when you do look at something, lines don't really exist, right? There's no lines are just a creation that we made to try to understand the world in a more simple way. But yeah, once you start literally blurring the line between how we think we see the world and how it actually is. It's a lot more chaotic, a lot more holistic, which is a little bit the opposite of what we're taught at these academies, which is so cool, because I feel like you know, you have to have that base, or at least some sort of base, of understanding of how to draw and basic technique, and then you can start leveling up into this more complex exercises, like the one that you're doing. I feel like it might, I know, you get a lot of you mentioned in a previous conversation. You get some beginner painters or some beginner artists. Do you find that, you know, for beginner artists, it might be a little bit easier to jump into those complex concepts, or is it still a very uphill, uphill battle for them?

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:06:27

I think a beginner painter in the technique of experimental watercolor have probably an easier time, you know, because they don't have any preconceived ideas. So in some respects, it's easier. But then, when it comes to if they don't have experience of the drawing, you know, if they're trying to create a shape or form or something, you might have some difficulty with that. When you talk about drawing, I felt like, you know, once I really got a good handle on drawing, it gave you a certain amount of freedom, because you could do any you can draw people, you can draw buildings. You could draw, you know, still life flow. You can do anything, because you have an understanding of, you know how to create a form. And a lot of times I'll have a student, even if, even in this technique, I have a student wants to come in and do a landscape painting, and they have a beautiful photograph. And then she says, but I want to make the light go this way, and I want to have the shadows and the trees go like this. And I want, I said, have you done a lot of plein air painting? No, never. I said, Okay, I wouldn't even try. You know, you know you have to have, you know, some knowledge, if you want. You know, even though we're not, I give my I gave my students a lot of leeway, because we're not creating realistic painting. You know, we have splashes of color that identify as form and sky and land, but so they have a lot of freedom. But when it comes to the light and the movement and, you know, shape and form. I, you know, I want them to have some, you know, some replica, you know, that it that we get a sense of what that object is. And so coming with, with more experience and knowledge can hurt, you know, but it's a lot of that gets tucked away, you know, in the process of this, of this technique, we don't, you know, it's not, I'm not obsessing about creating, you know, the perfect trunk of a tree, or, you know, light on tree. It's not, you know, it's the whole, the whole effect, you know, looking at that big picture, not not worrying too much about it,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:47

yeah, yeah. And like you mentioned, leaving that mystery, which I think is it's beautiful because it it's also very narrative in a way, you're allowing the viewer to complete the image. And I love that with your experimental watercolors, you can really aim for that and hit that point, because it it really is very dreamy, you know, like there are so many things that our brain, whenever we have a dream, our brain fills in the gaps, even though, when you really think about it realistically, nothing makes sense, but it's beautiful to get the viewer to dream like that. Yes, yes.

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:09:27

I think of the splatters and the strokes and everything like it's a tapestry, and you're just weaving together these threads that eventually, you know, create that whole image. So, yes,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:09:40

very beautiful, very beautiful. Do you have any final words of wisdom or advice for our listeners who are really wanting to maybe find their own voice or really start taking their dream of being an artist seriously?

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:09:57

Okay, if they're trying to find their own voice. I would say, make sure this is something that brings you great enjoyment. And I think a lot of people like when you know you and I have the experience of going to through academic training where we, you know, it's very serious, and I didn't ever think of it was fun, you know, I'm having fun now. But I think the training and everything is important to have that foundation. To start with, have a good drawing Teacher, have good you know, drawing lessons, establish some drawing skills, and then move into painting, you know, then you have, you know, if you want to be a representational painter, I'd say you need the the foundation of good drawing skills, understanding of development of form, etc, and from there you can paint, you know. But I remember being in a portrait class, and the people came in right off the street, and they're they want to paint, and they have no drawing skills. And the school at the time didn't have drawings. This was at a school I went to in New Jersey, in Ridgewood, Art Institute, and they didn't, at the time, have a drawing class. Now they have drawing classes. And I was like, wow, that person really needs to draw first. You know, it's really difficult. I mean, especially portrait, you know, not to have drawing skills and destroy, you know. So that's one thing, if they're thinking becoming a, you know, representational painter, if they're going to be an abstract painter, I've seen amazing, you know, outsider artists who have no training, who are doing amazing things. So beautiful work. And it's possible to be a very successful artist without that, but know what your your your skills, what, what you need to if you're pursuing that aspect of it. And, yeah, that's, that's an important part.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:12:01

Yeah, beautiful, I completely agree. Yeah. You have to know more or less where your weak points are, where your strengths lie, and then work with that. Yeah. Very perfectly said, Yes. Do you have any upcoming shows or exhibitions, workshops, or anything that you would like to promote.

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:12:22

I will be posting information about my upcoming workshops. I, you know, it's January, and I'm planning. I'm just in the planning stages, but I do, I do watercolor workshops. I do that the experimental watercolor workshops. I'll have a couple of those throughout the year. So that's something people could get, maybe on my website after I post it, and they want to get in touch about classes. I don't know if they I live in Warwick, New York, which is the lower Hudson Valley. And some people live far. Some people live closer. I do, I do have a couple of remote students that I work with via zoom. And that works out, you know, because I could see the work, we could talk about it, and that's been working out, okay, that's a possibility.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:13:15

Awesome. Well, where can people see more of your work?

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:13:18

My website is Susan Hope, Fogle, fine art.com and I, I have a gallery up in Hudson, New York, Carrie, hi, Dad gallery. That's that, and that's right now. And I'm my paintings are an exhibit in a restaurant in Warwick, because the event, a gentleman opened this, this restaurant in town, and he wanted local landscapes. And I said, and he asked me if I had any did work of my work. And so he had these big walls, and I happened to have two four foot canvases of farms. So that worked out well. But nothing nice storage closet. Yeah, I've sold a couple of paintings from there as well. So that's, that's a nice, you know, because people recognize the local landscape, so they like that,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:16

definitely. And it also, you know, it also reminds us of the importance of also being the local artists, right, working with, you know, local restaurants, local cafes, local anything, because they also like to support their artists, and they also kind of work out as galleries in themselves. A lot of people see the work and maybe they fall in love with

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:14:41

it. Yeah, a lot of restaurants do that. I did have an open studio in December this year. Also, I usually, I do an open studio almost every year. That's a that's that's a fun event, because you get people coming in. You're meeting, you know, neighbors, friends and you know fellow artists come in and. Do a demo. And, you know, I mean, I've gotten new students from that, commissions, you know, sales, so it's a nice event. Yeah, it could be at home in my studio. So,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:14

yes, yeah. And you know, as I've mentioned, maybe in past episodes, being an artist is it can be a very isolating career, because it's a very solo thing. So it's really nice to meet new people,

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:15:28

yes. And I think my social as the social aspect of teaching is really because those students have become my friends, you know, we're, you know, and I love the dynamic of a group in the studio. These people have been with me for a while, so and followed me, you know, from the oil painting, as I said, to experimental watercolor. So, Wow, beautiful. That's been awesome.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:15:54

Yeah? Well, that's really awesome. Susan, I will actually be looking at your experimental watercolor workshops. Hopefully I might be in the States, and I can hopefully align with one of those, because that sounds so exciting, but yeah, thank you so much for being a guest on the show. I Oh, you gave me so much food for thought.

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:16:15

Oh, good. And thank you for inviting me. Yeah, of

Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:18

course. And Happy New Year. Oh yes, have a good year. Me too.

Susan Hope Fogel: 1:16:24

Okay. Be well. Bye.