Scott Burdick: 0:00

Making it personal, something that matters to you, I think, is the number one thing that all artists need to think about.

Carolyn Anderson: 0:09

Painting is really all about seeing or learning to see, or seeing information that maybe you want to see, or whatever, but at least being able to parse the information.

Aaron Westerberg: 0:20

And the best paintings are the ones that are the more personal you know, the more real paintings. Those are always the best ones. And so, you know, when you lie, everyone knows, you know they can tell. Just

Kathie Odom: 0:33

hit the courage button. It takes a lot of courage just to put yourself out there, just to do your art thing and let people look at it. I mean, but it there is a point where you just you have to let go and you have to be uncontrolled sometimes.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:54

Welcome to the bold brush show where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world, in order to hear their advice and insights. Today's episode is all about inspiring our listeners. We've compiled the best tips and advice from some of our most loved episodes to keep you motivated in your art journey, whether you're working on a new piece, struggling with marketing or just need a spark of encouragement. These insights are for you. These moments stood out for a reason. They've helped so many of our listeners, and we hope they'll do the same for you. When

Scott Burdick: 1:42

I went to school, you know, the teachers set up the models for us, and we would Nancy Guzik and I and different artists were as friends we, you know, we had life dry in the morning and that oil painting afternoon, and then we go to the palette chisel after school. And it was just about trying to learn how to draw a nose, to look like a nose or face to get your proportions. I mean, you really weren't expressing yourself that much. We were just learning our vocabulary, what we were going to use to speak later. But there are some artists who never go beyond that. They just get caught into the and it is. It's a wonderful thing to just draw something beautifully or paint something beautifully. But if you're not taking your own getting your own models, lighting them, finding your own subjects. You know, we get lots of people ask us if they see some of the photographs we on the Patreon too. We'll do photo sessions with models and to show people how to use cameras, how to use lighting, all the sorts of stuff that you need. We didn't learn in school. I didn't even have a camera until I finished school. But those are things you have to learn. You have to get good at those, those those aspects as well. But people will write and say, Oh, can I buy photos from you? Because these are so beautiful. And I always feel like that's not You're not thinking, right? You know, because you can get all kinds of great photos from the internet and stuff. But, and this is my viewpoint, because some people will take photos that from magazines or whatever, and then they'll transform them into completely their own thing. So that's totally different. But for me personally, once I finished got to that level where I started to get my basics down, that was where I was like, I'm so excited to go out and get my own subject matters and some of the first things that I was most excited about painting zone. I would go on these volunteer trips to built a orphanage in Mexico and volunteered at a refugee camp for El Salvador and Guatemalan refugees in Texas, and then on in South Dakota, living with a family on the Navajo on the Lakota reservation, those sorts of things. And then as soon I started to travel, that was it was like art was an excuse to go to these places and discover things, and then to put them into my paintings, to share them with other people. My viewpoint, but what I've learned from those people. And I feel like, if it doesn't even have to be traveling far, I mean just people that we meet around here, down the street from us, you know, painting all these people, or in your yard, animals that you you see, or your own animals, or your own family, those, I think, are the more important subject matters to paint, not just that. Oh, this is a beautiful photograph that somebody else took. That personal experience. I think is what art is about. I think it's what writing is about. When I first started writing in school, you know, so many the really good writers there were writing things that were their own experiences. And I had one of my short stories published when I was when I was taking writing classes at Columbia College and in anthology book, and because it was a personal experience of myself. And so those are what's going to be valued more than your technique or anything you need to get your technique. Unique, just like you need to get your writing skills up to tell your story, but making it personal, something that matters to you, I think, is the number one thing that all artists need to think about. And I find it sad. Sometimes I'll go out with young artists and they'll be like, Look at that. Isn't that cool? You know, some old car, whatever it is. It might not be something interesting to me, but it is to them. And I'll say, Well, you should paint that like, oh, but that's not really a subject that galleries are looking for. It's like, you can't talk yourself out of that, because if it's something you're passionate about, it will strike a chord in people, and that's something I think that it's hard to teach. I we tend to just on Patreon, mostly talk about, we'll talk about the inspirations that we have for things, but it's hard because everybody will have their own inspiration. And technical things are easier to teach because they are. We can all agree on, you know, what the values are and stuff. But anyways, I'm, talking too much, but that's the most important thing to me.

Laura Arango Baier: 6:04

You made some very good points. And I think you know the whole idea of, oh, but the gallery, wouldn't you know, like that, or, Oh, the collectors don't care about that. It's like, who cares? Like, you're painting for yourself, right? You're painting I'm gonna say that it's a very selfish thing to paint. It's selfish in the sense of, I'm I want to put my inner world out there, right? I want to put my inner image out there. But at the same time, it's selfless, because you're sharing it with everyone, right? But in its inception, the reason that you paint should be purely intrinsic motivation. Of, I care about this so much they want to immortalize it on a canvas. And when

Scott Burdick: 6:43

you're painting one thing, it's easier to find one person that's going to react to it, you know? And I see artists talk themselves out of painting things that they actually love. They love children, they love flowers, they love beauty of nature. And they'll say, Yeah, but I won't be considered important artist, if I do this, I gotta do something with a message or this or that, so both can be true, you know, just because you know and so. But that's what's great about like what, what Sue and I do, is, when you're doing an original painting, you you can find one person who's going to like it. You just need to find the right place to sell your work. So if whatever you paint, if you like classic cars, you're going to send it to a different place. So, or if you like comic books, then you're going to your art will be best sold this way, or whatever, graphic novels or fantasy art. So it's best to find the thing you're passionate about, then find the outlet. But it's easier with paintings. If you're passionate about something to find that one person, you only need to find one person who has that same reaction to something as you do, and so that's one of the reasons why I shied away from doing prints. We did some in the very beginning, years ago, like 35 years ago, I did a couple, and they did well for a print company, but then they're pretty much asking you, well, you got to pick a subject that is more, you know, widely that you can sell 1000s of not just one. And that's when I said, Okay, this isn't for me, because, you know, then I'm it's in my head, and I have to think about that. I will start to paint for that market. And so, so it depends on what your what your market is, but there's, there's something out there for everybody. And I, I, I find that when I used to teach workshops, that was the biggest obstacle, was people. We still get lots of emails about that and saying, yeah, yeah, those are all great, but I need to make a living at this and and I understand that. And when I was in school, and just after school, I did portrait commissions, I did whatever I needed to make money, but then I also had this part where I did what I wanted to do, and the goal was eventually to make a living off of that. So there's nothing wrong with painting things or doing commissions or whatever will pay the bills, but still, keep in mind those things that you are passionate about. Otherwise you'll start to hate, you know, you'll hate being an artist. And nobody really goes into art to make a lot of money. I mean, it's not really the best plan. So if you get stuck in that, you're going to start to resent, you know, you feel like, why didn't I just become an account or something? You know, sometimes I don't, I It's really difficult, because you have to just follow what you're interested in. And it's it is being an artist, being a writer, all sorts of things are, are very much a something that's not guaranteed. So if I go to work for somebody, if I go to work for DreamWorks or other places, then it's more guaranteed and and people have different personalities. There are just incredible artists that work at the studios in different places, and some of them there, that's just their passion. They love being given a project and to work on. And then they they. They they do it, and it's collaborative. So you have to kind of judge your own self, you know? I I just am not that kind of person. I really do like working on weird things, half of which don't sell, but enough sell. And so you have to look at your own self. Do I have the personality for this. Are you really driven to want to do your own things, or is it better to work for a place and then just not have that? Some people the stress of having to come up with money. I mean, especially we don't have kids. You have kids, you have all the sorts of expenses, it can be very stressful. So maybe it's not right for you to have the stress of trying to make a living. We have people who come to us and say, well, I need to make this amount of money a year. How can I do that with being a painter? And sometimes you're just like, well, you know you're putting yourself under so much stress, you know that you're not going to be able to do your own work. Maybe it's better to do something else for your money and then do this for yourself, because that can be pretty stressful. So I think taking my best advice is taking the pressure off yourself however you can, whether it's another job and then do this part time. I mean, that's what I did with writing or moving places, if you can, like we moved places to take the stress off us. I know that if I lived in a place that was very expensive and we had lots of kids and things like that, I probably would have to have done more things to just make money. So there's, there's nothing wrong with that. That's a great thing, you know, and even if I were to go work for films I love, like you said, I love spirit, I love those things, I would be happy working in places like that too. So it's, it's really hard to give specific advice, I think, trying to make it so you don't have too much stress with that put so much pressure on you that's always going to be the death of creativity. So, yeah, wow.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:05

Very wise words, very true. And actually, you're not the first person to tell me that, so it has to be true to some extent then, because I also feel that same way, where if I feel like I have too much pressure and I feel like there's something hanging over me, it's I just blank out. I can't, I can't work under that. So it is very good to be able to take that pressure off. And, yeah, there's absolutely no shame in having, like, a day job that supplements your income. Like, yeah, eventually maybe your work ticks off, and you can actually just live from your work. But if the pressure is too much, it's better to just, you know, make sure you have that income coming in, especially now in these strange economic times. Um, well, and

Scott Burdick: 12:47

it's not an, it's not like a only this or that. So just if you're looking to make a living at your painting doesn't mean it's not worth doing that. I mean, I That's how I feel about with writing. Or when I make a documentary. I love writing for itself, because I learn I create characters at different viewpoints, and it forces me to research them and have these discussions. And so I enjoy that so much. It's not like, Okay, I've decided I'm not going to do this for a living, so therefore there's no reason to do it. And if I went and did did, if I wasn't making enough money at painting and I went and worked full time, writing for whatever place I was writing for, I would still do art. I would feel that same freedom, that same joy in it. So I think it's difficult sometimes to separate the financial from the creative and it's great if you can make a living at at least one of the things that you are creative with, because then you're not having to but I mean, some of the greatest writers, they their stories, or their painting, some of the greatest painters, even there, there's things came out of jobs that they had that were just simply to make money as loggers as this is that, or whatever. And that ended up to be their, their greatest contribution to art, because they had this experience. You think of Herman Melville, you know, going to see, as you know, a whaler. And then that became masterpiece story, and it was just originally done simply to make money and so, so sometimes, you know, if you go to grocery store and that becomes, you know, you you paint something, you write something from that. So, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, you can't separate life from your art. Is kind of what I would say, you know, don't, don't, don't, don't compartmentalize them.

Laura Arango Baier: 14:40

Um, I wanted to know, is there a specific aspect of visual language that you think is underrated or isn't mentioned enough that is actually very, very important?

Carolyn Anderson: 14:54

Yeah, and I'm going to say line so I'll explain it in a second, but I think we probably just need. To clarify So the basics of visual language are based art, usually recited as line, shape, value, color and then texture and edges. I give this a lot of thought. A long time ago, while I was sitting on a plane, actually going to Disney and thinking, you know, that's just from in my mind. I like to keep things when it comes to painting as simple as possible, because that there's just so much information. You know, it's like, narrow it down, find the focus. But anyway, I decided that texture and edges are aspects of the first four my shape, value, color. Okay, there they can be extremely important, but they're they're aspects of the other four. So if you want to break it down to the real basics, you can just keep it as simple as line, shape, value, color. It makes perfect sense. And out of those, we spend a lot of time in oil painting, especially talking about shapes and color and value. But for some reason, wine seems to get overlooked or discounted. Is not a part of painting, you know, we recognize it as a part of drawing, as a part of you know, a good example would be etching, you know, we and I think it's because of the word association. There are a lot of things that we just don't comprehend in their entirety, just because the association of the word word is limited in our mind. So I think because artists a lot of times associate line with a thin mark, you know, a thin directional Mark, if you will. And so don't recognize its potential for, let's say, well, direction and painting or for modifying edges, and overlook the importance of the use of line even in painting. So Sargent and Zorn, for example, you can go back and look at their paintings, you can find lots of examples of line if you accept that line is not a pencil mark, okay? It's not an outline. It doesn't have to be an outline. It can, you know, in one of the incarnations, it can be an outline, but it doesn't have to be an outline. It can be a modifier. So I think line kind of gets left behind. We spend a lot of time on shapes and and, like I said, value and color, but but not line. And line is our basic mark making. So if you consider that any mark that you make with a brush is dependent, of course, on the size of the brush, but it's unless you're doing pointalism, it's basically line. Here's the thing about that kind of painting, it's we recognize that painting is really all about seeing or learning to see or seeing information that maybe you want to see or whatever, but at least being able to parse the information. So it really is a seeing process and in our everyday lives, and for those people not involved in the arts, we don't see that information. We just don't. People don't look up at the sky and go, you know, unless it's a sunset or something, but they don't look up at the sky and go, let me quantify the difference between that value and color shift at the horizon line versus further up. Or what are the you know, what? What are those clouds? You know, that's where you get to the although the sky is blue and the clouds are white. Now that's a problem, because once you have that simplistic idea in your head, you just might not see the nuances that are there. But if, on the other hand, you're parsing it out as in, okay, let me grab a two tube of paint and try and quantify what the heck is going on here? You know? Then and make comparisons, then you see the variety. So even though you can't start a painting with all that variety, you can start thinking about it with that variety. I

Laura Arango Baier: 19:13

came across an article of yours that I fell in love with. I think I read it like three times, and it's the one where you talk about peak shift, and it's, do you mind explaining what that is really quick, and then we can dive into that. Yeah.

Carolyn Anderson: 19:31

So that was a post that I wrote a few years back titled The limits of likeness. And I just want to clarify. I always like to give credit where credit is due. So peak shift that term was described by the neuroscientist Ramachandran VS Ramachandran and his book The TellTale Brain. But it was originally termed super normal stimulus in the 1950s by a biology, a Dutch biologist. So. In my mind, that's just, I don't know why I find things like that interesting, but anyway, Rama shandran described peak shift kind of the same way that tinberger did, the Dutch biologist, but he was a biologist. He was studying gold carrying gold chips. Ramachandran took the term and he turned it towards art and people, if you will. And he described it as the hard wiring of the brain to focus on parts of objects that matter the most. So just to clarify there, first of all is we just were discussing. We don't really see everything, but we see things that we notice, things that catch our attention. And so we are more apt to pay attention to those parts of the seeing process, those things that are kind of stand out, if you will, that are a little different. So peak shift would go a long ways towards explaining how exaggeration and simplification works in art, any kind of art, basically, you know, sculpture, painting, whatever it may be. And you can think of caricature as a good example. So you know, why do we react to, you know, comic drawings, for example, that are just a simple, basic use of line and maybe exaggerating some of these features, or whatever it may be. Why are those so powerful? You know, they don't have a lot of information in them. It's just that the information that's included May is both exaggerated and simplified. So we notice it, you know. Like I said before, we we tend to overlook a lot of stuff just because it's, yeah, we see it all the time. So stuff that's in things that are just real, real, real, if you will. It's like, yawn, you know? Yeah, I see this. I see people every day, you know, but something that's a little different can catch our attention. Now, if you don't want to go towards that caricature aspect or extreme exaggeration or whatever, you need to find something in the process. Let's talk about your peppers so you can never recreate those peppers to be the peppers that you set out on your table or wherever you were painting them. You just can't do it. First of all, pigment is one type of color, and light is another. So two different, you know, we've got CMY and RGB. They're two different processes of processing light and color and pigment in color. So you can't recreate those peppers. And besides that, the peppers have have other things they bring to the table. Like, for example, it could be any association you may have with peppers, you know, such as pot, for example. You know, smell if you cut a pepper open. I mean, we can, you know, in my mind, where I would go with it would be the color, you know, because the the color is so strong, so you can't, if you accept that, you can't recreate a pepper on your canvas. Okay, you can't take that three dimensional object that has all kinds of interesting things about it, and recreate that on your canvas. What can you do? So what you want to do is find that that part that is to you, most interesting. So Ramachandran also went on to describe it as the ancient Sanskrit word rasa, meaning capturing the very essence or the spirit of something to evoke some kind of reaction. So if you can't capture the real thing, you need to bring something else to the table. The symbol is the image that you create on your canvas will always be lacking, no matter how how oriented you are towards every nuance of that pepper, right, right? So you need to take it someplace else, if you will. It can still be realistic, you know, but the realism needs to go somewhere in a slightly different direction. So if you throw out, if you throw out the idea that you cannot recreate something. You know, I do this in my workshops, or, you know, if we have a model sitting there, I said, you cannot recreate this person on the canvas. I'm sorry. You could draw her faithfully. You could, you know, you can work for years to recreate, you know, good value, contrast and painting, but there's always something, you know, extra and that sometimes separates painters out. So, yeah, it's, it's smoke and mirrors. And if you accept the fact that that's what it is to begin with, it kind of opens another doorway for you, you know, hey, this isn't real anyway. If it's not real, then, you know, by golly, I'm gonna put a little bit more. Me in there. So our basic visual language, if you think what a kid would would come up with on a drawing, you know, you can never get away from the impact of some of those that early learning has kind of put into our brains. So to go on and create a symbol that is so it's like a historical novel or something. It's so much more than than just a picture of somebody, right? So, yeah, that's what we get. It's a painting. It's not a picture of somebody. It's a painting. It becomes something else. We need to ask ourselves a lot of times when we go to paint, it's kind of like, well, what's important here? And then you have to decide, of course, what's important to you as the painter, you know, and go from there. But yeah, it's, it's not the detail. So an interesting note on detail, on the way we see. The only reason we think we see in detail is because our eyes are constantly moving Period. End of story, because your detail vision is in the very center of your eye. And if you held your arm out and looked at your thumbnail, the size of your thumbnail is about your detail vision. Oh, wow, with your arm held straight out in front of you. Yeah, that little, tiny area that's your detail vision. So anything outside of that is your peripheral vision. And so the only reason we think we see everything just detailed is because our eyes are always moving, and they don't have to move a lot, you know, to see to go from one detail area to another detail area. But what we disregard is the importance of our peripheral vision, which is just very impactful. And here's a little science note, if you will, that our peripheral vision is better at assessing value shifts than our detailed vision.

Laura Arango Baier: 27:01

Wow, that makes sense. Yeah, so it's

Carolyn Anderson: 27:05

just important to keep that in mind when you're painting something to do as an exercise, which is kind of fascinating is when you're looking at something, don't deliberately focus your eyes on just one thing. Just kind of relax, relax your eyes as much as possible while staring straight ahead and allow yourself to take in as much of the visual field around you without just getting caught up in a detail area, you know, right? And it's just a an interesting way of looking at visual information without just going in for the the kill, if you will. And going in for that detail,

Laura Arango Baier: 27:43

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Aaron Westerberg: 29:24

the best paintings are the ones that are, the more personal, you know, the more real paintings. Those are always the best ones. And so, you know, when you lie, everyone knows. You know. They can tell, you know. So like I think, and I have most of my self portraits still, but I think my self portraits are some of my best paintings, because I'm just doing for me, you know. So it's kind of like there's no BS in there. I'm not trying to sell a painting or, you know, conform to somebody else's idea of what they want to see. It's. Is me, and so they're very direct and and I and so I think they're good, but, but yeah, and, you know, they're different too, you know? So that's another thing that I think is important, just which goes into not having, like, a school that I belong to, or anything is, you know, like i Everything is, is open, you know, I'm open to, you know, any kind of style or whatever gets the point across. You know, I'm not going to be like, Oh, I don't like that. I mean, I like Mark Rothko, I like, you know, whoever you know, it's like, okay, he's not a bigot of painter, okay, but what he does looks cool, you know. And like you were talking about, like, I A lot of times there's, like, big silhouettes in my paintings and things like that. It's, you know, I like, like, Black Sabbath, you know. I like, like, heavy guitar riffs I like, you know, simple but powerful, you know. And that's kind of what I'm going for. And almost all my paintings, you know, different ways of framing, you know, even cinematic kind of things, you know, like good filmmakers, things like that. I've been getting into that more lately. That's, that's what I've been kind of diving into lately, more relationship, kind of based narrative painting before. I mean, I painted a lot of just solo people, and now I'm doing a little bit more of couples and interactions between them. So that's been different for me, so, but, yeah, got off topic a little bit there, but, but that's, that's what I think makes that and that's why anyone can do great work, you know, because if it's, if it's true to them, it's going to be great, you know. And, and that's another thing too, you know, you don't have to, like, maybe you know this guy, but no one's gonna know who he is. But there's a guitarist called eBay mounds team, but he could play, like, every single classical music piece on its guitar super fast, and none of his songs are good. They're just horrible. But as a technician, he's the best, you know, he's, like, the best guitarist ever, right? But you don't know who he is, right? You know, we like, like Beatles and things like that simple, you know, because simple and it tells the story. It's not bogged down in technical, you know, prowess, it's just beautiful and simple and elegant and it it has emotion behind it. It's not just how fast you can play a complex thing, you know, or how many values you can get away with, or gradations and you know, things like that are just, they're meaningless. You know, they're technically meaningless unless there's something behind it. You know, something of value behind it. You know, something true. So that's kind of my painting philosophy. That's kind of how I approach painting. I try to anyway,

Laura Arango Baier: 33:08

like my question now is more so towards, like, when you were teaching and then, you know, maybe you became a full time artist, right? Not that that transition, right? What was that like for you? Was it like, slowly it, you know, kind of worked out that way. Or were you able to just, like, cut and just go,

Aaron Westerberg: 33:27

yeah, no, it was slow. It was over a few years, for sure, because I didn't know what I was doing, you know, I didn't know what it's doing. I was just, I just wanted to be a fine artist. I wanted to be a gallery artist, you know. And so I was like, What do I have to do to, you know, to do this? And I just wanted everything to culminate to where it would help facilitate that, you know. So working at borders didn't really facilitate that, you know, too much, you know. So as soon as I cut that out, I did, but, but, yeah, you know, you know, I think some of when you teach, like, you know, a lot of times I would get, you know, because my drawings were, they were, they were pretty decent drawings when I was teaching, because I would teach live drawing, and a lot of times I would get people to take my class, and they would see me, and, you know, I was like, you know, 20 something years old, and like, Oh, you're just a kid, you know, like, I thought you'd be like an old man or something, and, and I'm like, I think, but some of the best teachers are the ones that are, you know, just kind of learning. And, you know, can do the things, but everything is kind of new and fresh to them. They're not like, crusted over and, you know, they can actually express the ideas that maybe someone will just be like you just got to go through a million drawings to figure it out. So, you know, draw teaching. I think almost anyone can do that. You know, early on, you know, I think that's a really good way to start. And you know, it, it doubles down on what you know you're teaching. Somebody you know what you know, and so you have to vocalize it and basically explain it to somebody who has no clue. And it's also good, I have some good teaching stories, because I've taught for a long time, and I've taught some, I mean, I taught a guy, I'm positive he was in the witness relocation program. I mean, I'm positive, you know this guy was, like, total sopranos guy, and he had a pinky ring that was like as big as my thumb on his pinky, and you could just smash me in any time, if you want to. He was humongous. But, yeah, just so teaching. It's interesting, it's fun. But you learn more. You get better at your crafts by teaching. So I think that is, is a great way to supplement your income. And then, like, the thing I want to say with social media is, you know, it's, it's easy to get bogged down in it and just kind of be negative towards it, but it's like a great opportunity for artists right now. I know tons of artists, and I'm sure most of the viewers do also that just sell, you know, directly or through their Instagram or whatever. They don't have a gallery, you know, and, and it's, it's also, you know, I think we all have a degree of creativity, and you just have to kind of put it into the into your posts, you know, you, you know, like a lot of people, do the same things over and over, like varnishing the paintings or whatever. I mean, I do that, but, you know, but you just be creative with it. You know, when I, when I first got that, like, Aha moment, when I and I didn't get it, the aha moment until after it happened. But what I did is, for that studio sale, I laid out a whole bunch of paintings on my studio floor, and I took a picture of it, and I'm like, I'm gonna have a studio sale, and this, all these are going to be here, and frames and all kinds of stuff. And then people started emailing me that picture back and circling the paintings, like, how much is this one? How much? Like a lot of people, and I'm like, Oh, wow, this is really, this really works, you know, just this kind of organic. I'm not trying to sell individual painting. I'm just kind of showing them what I'm doing. And it worked great. Like I said, I sold almost everything before the actual opening of the studio, so the physical opening. So I think it's just a matter of putting your creativity into the marketing side of your paintings, and and it can be anything, you know, it can be anything. There's tons of ways to do it, you know, stuff that's not been done yet, stuff that's been done with your own little twist on it. It can be anything, but it's, you know, when you sell your stuff yourself, you don't have to give a percentage to the gallery, you know it's, it's very nice. It's very nice. And you know that, like a lot of galleries, don't share information, like who bought your painting, so, so, you know, you get, you develop a relationship with that person. And a lot of times those relationships last years, right? They continue to purchase from you. So you know it's, it's good. And you I mean, I, like no one who has my paintings, you know, I enjoy that a lot, and they send you a picture of it on their wall or whatever. It's so gratifying, you know, so, so, yeah, that is, that's a really good side of kind of social media and being able to market yourself and be, you know, be a living artist. So today, paint what you love, you know, and you know, kind of, yeah, just, I think that's, that's the key to it, you know. I think if you go in with, like, a marketing strategy and things like that, it's going to be harder. You know, it's going to be harder. And if you just start small and and build from that, it becomes easier. Because a lot of times you get into a trap where you may have some studio overhead cost or whatever, and you feel like, well, if I paint this, then I can, you know, afford that and and you just get way out on an island that you don't want to be on, and painting stuff you don't want to paint, and it's difficult to enjoy painting. That's, that's, that's probably the most important thing you know. Like to be successful and enjoy what you're doing, you know? Because, yeah, someone asked me, I think my dad is like, are you still enjoying it? I'm like, hell yeah. You know, like, yeah, for sure. You know, this is what I've been doing the whole time. And you know, I don't know if I want to say this part, but you know, like. I've done it my parents no help, you know, like no money. So it's been, it's been tough, you know, because I didn't go to college. I went to junior college, but, but no, like, you know, official diploma or anything like that. You know, degree, that's another thing that's good. You don't need a degree or anything to teach, generally, unless you're doing an accredited university. And even then, you don't need it really. But, you know, I've taught it. I've taught at fashion schools, taught all over the place, and, yeah, they just care if you're good, and you can convey, you know, the message in a pleasant way, I guess, but, but yeah, yeah for sure. You know, paint what you love, and you'll figure out how to make a living from that. You know, if you start small, I think, I think that's a good, good final thought.

Kathie Odom: 40:58

Just hit the courage button. I mean, I I don't know what else to say, other than it's gonna take it. You just can't control it, and you can't make it easy. It's, you know, and it's taken a lot, it takes a lot of courage just to put yourself out there, just to do your art thing and let people look at it, I mean, but it, there is a point where you just, you have to let Go, and you have to be uncontrolled sometimes. And the word courage just comes to mind foremost, yeah, yes, just absolutely do

Buddy Odom: 41:51

it. Could I add to Could I add also? I would say, get better, yeah, and work at it. I would say that to any artist living right now, get better, because there's a real trap to think if you're selling or if you're proud or anything like that, that there's some sort of arrival, but since it's this, this, yeah,

Kathie Odom: 42:19

and I I don't want to, I don't want to arrive. I want I want to work at it, but I want to continue to learn and work at it, and that keeps it exciting. And if I just find a certain way to do certain things, that's going to bore me. So keeping myself excited and intrigued by what we do is probably one of the best things,

Buddy Odom: 42:53

and this is where I've learned it just watching her, when she gets bored, and falling back into a little bit of a hole, like, I don't want to go out there, or I don't want to, you know, and but she's, it's because she's become bored with what she's doing and so, or she's feels the pressure to paint for someone other than her. And that is a really key thing that we try to keep the fire stoked on around here, for sure, is to is to paint.

Kathie Odom: 43:21

That really brings me to the place of paint, what interests you paint what you love. I really believe the viewer sees that. They know it when you're happy, when or when you're intrigued by what you're doing. Though be selfish a little bit. I mean, I spent my whole life trying not to be a selfish person, but when it came to the art, it was like, Okay, it's time. It's time to do what I want to do and express what I want to express, and not to worry about sales. Because if I don't worry about sales, then I believe I'm in a more genuine place. Now, my first experience in a gallery was I had taken, taken my first works in to be framed at this frame shop gallery. And the words that came out of the gallerist mouth were, I'm interested in your work. This designer in our shop is very interested in what you're doing. We would like to consider carrying you. But here were the words, you must be prolific, you know? Oh, wow. He took something that was so exciting, and then all of a sudden, did put pressure on it, or, you know, but I heard it, and that was a huge jump in getting started professionally, is I had heard the words prolific, and I took it to heart, and I think I'm still taking it to heart, but it's a good thing. It keeps me It keeps me in the paints and doing what I do love. So, you know, I used to look at what I posted, or the newsletter or an ad in a magazine and try to put well, did that sell something? Did that move something? And it felt like it didn't at all. And I've really come to the place I really have that. I feel like each painting has a home and it's going to find it. And I That sounds a little out there, but I really have and and that has helped me release and let it go and just create what I'm enjoying, and knowing that every now and then I pray about it, I do. I just, you know, and I, and that was a big for me to even think it was worth the prayer, but, but I have really, you know, I just try to live it out and and not try to find the niche. Instead, just do it and be and I think all of those things and the dirt, you know, the doing different things has got to help. But would you agree? I mean,

Buddy Odom: 47:06

I think the question too would be that we continue to ask. She asked me, in her way, and I asked her, is I say, Are you being Kathy? Are you Kathy? Are you? You know, not just be Kathy, because if she's if she's doing something, whether it's social media or painting, a painting, that's just not Kathy again, the viewer sees it. And that about finding every painting finding its home. I'm looking at a stack leaning against the wall over here, and that might be its home. Yes, they made a big old stack

Kathie Odom: 47:41

right there. Tom in the burn pile, that's right,

Buddy Odom: 47:46

but it all, but it all comes from, from earlier, when you said that, that statement that we that everything has brought us to this place. So that stack is still doing something within her to help her be genuine, to be Kathy and so and that, that

Kathie Odom: 48:03

magazine ad cost a whole lot of money, and you really want to know is that, but that is getting you the public, and especially this wonderful plein air world, because it's gotten such feet under it. It's letting them know what you're up to and who you are, and that you're brave enough to put a half page ad, you know, in there. And it sooner or later, well, it's taken, I'd say it took about 10 years for just my name to be known a little bit shockingly. I mean, it was just a shock to run into somebody at a convention or or an event. Are you Cathy Odom? I mean, who knew? I mean, it's, you know, it Wow. Now that'll propel you to get in front of the easel. More, you know, too. But the courage to put to to finance things, the courage to put a lot of pain on that palette instead of just little bitty bits, you know, I mean all of those things, I think just tend to, you're worth it and and the painting is worth it, and it's, it's a deal, it's a big deal. And let's, let's, let's buy into our sales. And

Buddy Odom: 49:49

while Meanwhile, there and here's, here's another quote from a favorite book of ours that says, don't think too highly of yourself, but with sober judgment. So we. Try to stay in. Isn't that a great isn't it great? Do not think more highly of yourself than you do not think more highly of yourself than you ought, but with sober judgment. And so, you know, we need each other. We need we need each other to say, are you drunk on yourself? You know? You know, because I get drunk on myself, I just think too highly of myself. So can we be, have a little bit be a little bit more sober about it all, and so with a career with people saying, Are you Kathy Odom? You gotta have to go, yeah. I'm just good old Kathy Odom, not. That's usually

Kathie Odom: 50:33

how I answer. Do

Laura Arango Baier: 50:35

you have any final pieces of advice for anyone out there who might be listening? I

Kathie Odom: 50:43

I don't think any different than what we've said. But if I could leave people with putting you, put yourself out there and have courage about it, that would that would be

Buddy Odom: 50:57

definitely I have, I have one thing please, and that has to do with pricing, oh,

Kathie Odom: 51:04

oh, here we go.

Buddy Odom: 51:07

And it's in, it's, you know, I think it's all integrated together. And what we're saying, and I like to say that when Kathy paints a painting, she's, she's kind of doing this and then putting it onto the canvas. So she's scratching her, beat her, she's putting her DNA into the painting. How much is that worth? And so you don't just say, Oh, it's this, no, it's a piece of you, even if you don't like it at the moment, it's you on the way. And so price it accordingly. And if you don't, you hurt our other artists as well, who are trying to put themselves literally out there, putting their DNA into a painting. And so the way in which you price you ought to be, you ought to need to pinch yourself to price it there. You know, if it's a, if it's an easy number for you to price it at, you're too low. You need to be able to say courage. There it is.

Kathie Odom: 52:13

There it is. Even, even with that,

Buddy Odom: 52:17

we can't afford a Cathy o to paint because, because we're put we're lifting it up. And other people have said, I want a piece of Cathy. And, you know, that's not just a marketing. Let's push this. How high is the market ceiling, that sort of thing. It is a little bit of that. But more than anything else, it's taking yourself seriously. Well,

Kathie Odom: 52:39

it took a lot of putting yourself out there in events or your work into a gallery or a national show, being courageous enough to enter those and so I mean, shockingly enough for Me, are ribbons that are over here on this metal cabinet of mine, and I don't show them at all so that people that walk in my studio see that I put them there to say to Kathy, every day, you've done something with this and something's going on, and that's called value. You've been courageous. And so actually, the market has pretty much told me where to price things because of what's happened. And so all of those, all of that, comes into play. So for beginners or amateur, they call themselves, and, you know, oh, I just do this, you know, as a side thing. Even take, take when you're that, take that seriously, because there, there's a lot of us out here taking it very serious, yeah, yeah.