Tony Pro: 0:00

So you just always have to, like pivot. You, you know as the the older the US Marines you have to improvise, overcome and adapt. You have to just figure out what's next. What can I do? And there's just, you know, I feel like my life has been nothing but that trying to figure out okay, well, that's not working. Let's try this. Let's try that. And, you know, you eventually keep slogging along, something will click something will happen, you know, welcome

Laura Arango Baier: 0:31

to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. But those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques, and all sorts of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their careers as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. On today's episode, we sat down with Tony pro of Western realist artists was a deep love for the West End with deep roots in it as well. Tony tells us all about his education as an illustrator and the advantages illustration affords realist painters like him. Why knowing how a gallery works inside and out is necessary if you want to sell your work with one hand, why being an artist is all about improvising, overcoming and adapting, both in the canvas and outside of the canvas business wise. Finally, he tells us about his online art academy Zarya, and the upcoming night of artists show at the Bristol Museum in March 2024. Welcome, Tony to the BoldBrush show. How are you today?

Tony Pro: 1:37

I'm doing very well. Thank you.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:39

Great. I'm excited to have you on. Because you have really lovely and inspiring work. I've been browsing your page, I think for the past two days, just looking at your paintings, and I absolutely love how they incorporate so much color and vibrancy and they retain that realism to them, which I really want to dive into maybe why that could be but before we do, do you mind telling us a bit about who you are and what you do?

Tony Pro: 2:10

Well, sure. So I I've been a professional artist for probably a little over 20 years now. I grew up in Los Angeles area in the United States. And I was trained as I went to went to college for graphic design degree. And at the same time I was studying to I was studying how to draw and sketch for the purpose of doing movie poster work. And so I studied at the California Art Institute, under the tutelage of Glenn orebic, who has unfortunately been gone for over eight years now he passed away of cancer. And maybe it's actually it's been almost 10 years. So I studied with Glenn for about five years, just strict academic figure drawing and drawing charcoal pencil only. And it was, it was a method that I that he was teaching that that school was not well known for, which was started by its founder, Fred Pixlr. And Glenn was a student of Fred fix ler as was my brother, my older brother, and they were in class together. And my dad also studied with Fred fix learn a little bit too when he's picked it up as a hobby. But Fred fixer was a student of Frank J. Reilly, who was known for teaching at the Art Students League in New York. And he taught a very specific method of drawing, which became the Reilly method and the Reilly method is a system of drawing that is, it looks for long, dynamic rhythmical relationships within the human head and within the human body. And so, it's not you know, kind of you know, some other drawing methods or figure drawing type ways and figure drawing like, you know, George Bridgman, taught very blocky and very, like mechanical type of, you know, drawing method whereas, and even though they were colleagues at the Art Students League, I think they were there different times though. Riley's method was more about long lines that you can see through the body and see through the head and you could relate things and it and it made for a much more well designed big You're much more well designed head. And a lot of that, you know, I use, I use the Reilly method, even though I wasn't taught, I wasn't taught to see it in horses or mountains or anything like that you can translate it very easily into other things. It's just a way of seeing like, as you know, like, part of the biggest process of becoming an artist, or a draftsman is learning how to see. And so that's, so that's kind of, you know, what we were taught to do there and what we were, you know, and then it was a very, very serious school, a very serious environment, this sense of everyone was kind of competing with each other to get better, you know, and get get those drawings up on the wall that the wall was like being you know, it was like, it was like a weekly privilege. If you got to drawing in the wall. It was like, you know, you kind of made it. I didn't get my drawings on the wall as often as some of the other guys like, you know, Jeremy lipping was there. And it's not the guy, Ryan Wormser, who was always great. And, you know, so there were several guys in my class that that turned out really well. And then other artists like Aaron Westerberg came along later, Aaron was studying with on a Glenn students down in San Diego. But he ended up coming up and working with Glenn for a bit, and Joseph Dora vich was there. Rick Morris, we had a lot of really stellar artists come through our school. And so I stayed there about five years. And then I started teaching there as well. And then at the same time, I was basically just learning painting on my own, I would watch some of the painting classes, and then I would, you know, I just, I read a lot of books, I watched a lot of painting demonstrations, this was all prior to YouTube, of course, I think it's a lot easier these days to be an art student, and to learn how to paint and draw because of social media, and you know, the amount of content that's out there, we didn't have that. You know, we had, I had VHS old bootleg VHS tapes of like, Richard Schmid demonstrations, and that kind of thing. So that was, that was kind of my, that was my education and painting. And then of course, my older brother, and my dad, were, you know, my older brothers and illustrator. A very successful one. And he's now he's been working in, in theme park design. And so he's an imagineer for Disney. And, but he's 10 years older than I am so, so he already went, he had gone through the drawing and painting program under Fred Pixlr. So he was kind of like, my at home, you know, or on the weekends, he'd come by, and, you know, do club me around if I was doing things wrong, or whatever, but so, so that was kind of where I started. And, you know, that process, it was a long process, because at the same time, I was also working professionally. And in the graphic design world, I went into entertainment, specifically when I lived in LA. And so I worked for various design agencies, at agencies that that specialized in the entertainment work that worked for all the various studios. And, and then I eventually went to work for the movie studios themselves. So I worked at MGM for about five years. And then I went over to Sony Pictures for a while. And, you know, that was all fun experience. And but at the same time, I was basically just working all day and then drawing painting into late at night. You know, and then of course, on the weekends, I was going out plein air painting on the weekends. And that was what was teaching me color and learning how to see color. And then taking all that information that you're looking at outside and trying to you know, digest it onto a, a nine by 12 Canvas, you know, and that's and that was that was that was probably one of like, the most difficult things to learn. And it's still, of course, a challenge to, you know, create a really well done landscape, I find a landscape is much more difficult than then doing a finger painting or a head painting. But so, you know, and that and that, that that was a, you know, over the course of about 10 years, that process was just kind of working and then just constantly working at it. And then then I started in about 2003 III, I got my first chance to get in a gallery. And it was by accident actually, it was the gallery that Jeremy looking and first started in, and other guys that I went to school with. And you know, I mean, Sean Cheatham was there, a bunch of different, you know, really great artists. That's where that was like their first place to show. It was a gallery called Morrisburg gallery in West Hollywood. And my, my, I was bugging my friend, you know, you're gonna get my work, and they're getting my work in there. And at the time, it was just drawings. And so he talked to the gallery owner. And so the gallery owner thought that I was my older brother. So he said, Yes, thinking that he was getting somebody who's 10 years older, and was gonna get more refined works. And I brought my work and he's like, Oh, okay. He's like, wow, he's like, you know, worse the paintings, like, well, I'm still working on that. And he was like, okay, and he realized, I wasn't who he thought I was. So, but anyways, but he was in a predicament anyways, so. So you had to basically put me in, he didn't want to let me down. So, and it was fine. It was an interesting, it was an interesting first time in a gallery. I think he maybe only sold about two pieces of mine. And I was only paid for one of them. He was a terrible businessman. He was very, he's a very intelligent art historian, but he was just terrible at running business. And he eventually went out of business because of it. And of course, you know, it was all basically student work that I had in there. So it wasn't, it wasn't anything great. But it was interesting. It was an interesting process to get into and, and then, you know, so from there, it it kind of just, you know, I just was, it had been just years and years of repetition of just, you know, always trying to figure out what to paint and what inspired me and then all along, it's just, I really was loving painting outdoors and to which I don't. These days, I haven't I haven't plein air painted outdoors and years. Just because it's you know, the older I got, you know, the more irritating it became because of bugs. And, you know, in here in Texas, it's the weather's not as nice in Texas as it is in California. So, you know, it's either too hot or too cold, too many bugs. Like if I'll do it from inside a window or something, you know, yeah. So that, so that was that's kind of my background a bit and where I'm from. So even further back than that. My parents were art collectors. They specifically they collected American western art, you know, the art of the West and kind of like, like the stuff I do now. That's what I was raised around. Every year, my dad would, my parents would attend the big cowboy artists of America show, which at that time was in Phoenix. And so I was around, you know, it was always this little kid who was around all these, you know, Western artists. And you know, and then my mom used to deal in Native American jewelry, Native American pottery. She also dealt with, dealt, you know, had a antique shop. So she sold, you know, largely just turn of the century or early, early 20th century antiques. And so, my childhood was based around them, you know, we go all over the country that the United States and we would go to this art show and that art show this museum, this antique show, store, that antique store. And then we've also spent a lot of time on the Indian reservations, the native Indian reservations, particularly the Navajo and Hopi were my, my parents would trade with them, you know, they would, and they would they basically buy, you know, rugs, pottery, baskets, you know, and of course, they, you know, the Native Americans, they, you know, the new money. And so, but it was interesting as a kid to go into these kinds of things, because I didn't know what the hell was going on. And I don't know, I didn't, you know, I realized that they were Indians and you know, you learn about them in school, and then what how you learned about them in school in the 70s was completely different when you're actually there on the reservation, and you're seeing how they live and how difficult it is for them still. And you know, unfortunately, in Some in some nations that hasn't changed. There's some, there's some pretty tough Navajo communities. I know, there's other ones that have kind of done better. But so anyway, so that, but that was my, largely my childhood, and my parents house was kind of like, you know, all united have friends come over and they said, well your house is like a museum, there's so much old stuff, you know, was old stuff, there was a lot of paintings. So it's really all a new, it's really how it was raised. And so that pretty much formed the way I the subject matter, I chose to stick with, you know, I went through a long period of time, in my career, just painting, you know, just pretty scenes, and, you know, scenes of beauty. And, you know, pretty, pretty ladies by a pretty woman, by a train station, or just, you know, kind of, kind of what everybody else was doing, and kind of what I thought, you know, people wanted and, you know, you get to a realization in your career where you, you, the, the reaction to your work, and how it sells kind of dictates where you go, career wise. And I was, you know, I wasn't, I'm not gonna say I was wildly successful at that, because there were certainly a lot of other artists that were doing it better than I was. But I got a lot of attention, I got, you know, some good, you know, I won some awards here and there, which, you know, it was great at the time, but they're virtually meaningless to me now. But, you know, and, you know, the magazines and this kind of thing. And it was just, it was very different. When I first started out, there was no Facebook, there's no Instagram, there was none of that. So it was a little easier to actually get noticed. Because if you knew people, and you, and you really put your work out there, like I was, like, for a while there, I was, I was putting my I was entering a lot of competitions, a lot of shows, I was sending my work all the time in magazines, with slides. Yeah, it's because I knew how to do it. And I had the kind of the time to do it, because I went through a lot of downtime in my office, you know, in, you know, when there'd be some downtime, I had plenty of time, so I do it. And so, you know, you kind of get the magazine start taking notice. And that's, that's kind of how you get you got notoriety back then? Well, these days, it's virtually like, I mean, these days, it's like, going viral is the way to get, you know, online, of course, is the way to get notoriety. Now, that doesn't always translate to sales, though. You mean, you can have a huge online presence, and be, you know, huge, you know, person on tick tock, or whatever. But it doesn't mean you're going to sell well in a gallery, because it's two completely different. Two completely different consumers of your art. And so, it's taken me a long time to learn this stuff, as as it would anybody else. A lot of trial and error, a lot of blood, sweat, tears, all the above. And so but I but I landed on what I'm doing now, because, you know, my dad passed away about 10 years ago, my mom passed away a few years ago, a little over two years ago. And I decided to just really stick with just the art of the American West. Partly as an homage to him. And then, you know, on the other hand, I said I just enjoy it, and it's what I know, it's what I grew up with. And I love I love I love everything about the West, that desert you know, visiting places like New Mexico and Arizona and Utah, even Wyoming, it's, it's it, it definitely kind of beckons something in me. And so and just the vibrancy of the color of the West, you know, the, the oranges and reds of of, you know, the mountain side of the sun versus the, you know, the contrast of the blue skies and all that. I think it lends itself to a really good painting, you know? So, so that's kind of what drew me into that genre and why and why I stick with it and, and I enjoy it. You know, I mean, I just made a trip. This A couple months ago to Santa Fe and Taos area hadn't been since I was there with my my parents. And, you know, went through the Nikolai facial museum again. And that was great. Of course, I mean, I've been such a fan of his work since I can remember. And I visited that place when I was a kid, as well as Irving couses. Studio. And so it was neat to just kind of go back and see it all again. And, of course, I started showing there in Santa Fe, just at the end of well, just at the end of August, I started there. So so far it's been, it's going pretty well. Fortunately, knock on wood here, because I don't want to jinx it. But you know, the gallery thing is just been, you know, it's tough. With some galleries that, you know, I can be in gallery for a long time you do you go through spurts of doing well. And then you'll go through these like absolute dry stages. And I think with a lot of galleries, you know, a lot of galleries are, they're going to promote who the the most popular people are in their stable, because they're the ones that get the highest amount of money for their work, or they, they're the most prolific and they sell the most. So they're only going to so if you're in a gallery that has a high amount of a large Artist Roster, they're going to promote, you know, the top people. And so typically, you know, it's always nice, as an artist to be in a gallery that has like, a really like, you know, like you're in a gallery of like, really well known artists, but that's not always a good advantage. It might be it might be something for your own ego, say, Well, I'm gonna gallery with so and so or I'm gonna gallery this person, but the problem is, is that they're going to sell that artists work before yours, because they're motivated to so. And that's typically what you see, that's what I've seen in almost every gallery I've been in. And, you know, I learned that lesson, you know, years ago, and I still continue to get reminded of it. You know, so it's kind of a catch 22 Like, you know, it's like, you know, you go into a lower end Gallery, where you're the bigger name, but they don't get the amount of collectors walk in there. So you know, this kind of weird. So it's, it's, it's an interesting, but but but you can kind of feel your way through it. And you'll see what people are attracted to, you know. And the other thing is, of course, spending time. You know, what I know when I was in Santa Fe, and I, you know, I was there for maybe 45 minutes in the galleries when I was dropping work off. I met several collectors that had come in and out just when I happened to be there. And it's just interesting to hear what people are looking at, and what they like in my work. In fact, I'd sold 111 little one that I brought, it sold within 15 minutes of me being there by somebody who was just there randomly looking. So it was interesting. And as an artist, I think it's good for for the go visit your galleries, you know, if you're in a gallery that's in another part of the country or the world, it's very important to go visit that gallery physically. And I show it a gallery up here in Fredericksburg, which is you know, an hour from here at insight gallery, very big gallery, lots of artists, lots of very successful artists show there. So I'm kind of a little lower on the totem pole there. But, but it's interesting, I go to a lot of shows that they have there. And I see what you know, I see what other what the collectors are looking at in other people's work. So I learned a lot from that. And I think I think artists can really learn a lot by just attending other artists shows and just watching people watching the collectors, watching people how they react to the work watching the galleries, or the gallery owners, how they handle things and what they're doing. There's a lot to be learned from that. You know, and just you know, I go and I look at the work for a bit but I usually just watch people and I watch what's happening. So because I just I'm a people watcher I'm sitting here taking up all the the airspace here so

Laura Arango Baier: 24:55

Oh no, you're dropping so many so many wonderful gems there because I'm You're not the first person who's told me about, you know, how the gallery game is pretty complex. And oftentimes they will have a large roster of like artists in their list and it, you know, doesn't always work, especially now with social media, I feel like social media has really changed the game. In so many ways it has, you know, it's almost divided the art world a little bit in, you know, the artists who sell on their own online, and then the artists who really, really love the galleries, and some people who do both, right. But it's good to, to really, if you do want to be in the gallery game, right? If you do want to be a gallery artist, then yeah, I think following, you know, seeing what other artists are doing, and listening and paying attention, and observing how the gallery works, and how The Gallerist sells can make a huge difference. I mean, you know, it's, I've heard so many things about, you know, good things, bad things about galleries, and one of the things that I find most interesting is, you know, so much of the sale falls on the shoulders of the galleries, right, and the people who work there to be sure to connect the artists with the correct collectors. And that can make or break, you know, your career in a lot of ways. You know, if if you decide to do that gallery, or if you decide to leave and be like, Okay, give me all my work back. Because you know, you're not really selling. Right, you know, that, that can, you know, that's a very big, important thing to take into consideration because you're entering into a deal with this gallery, right? They, obviously, it's a business, they want to sell stuff, you wanna sell stuff. So it's a little bit not great when they don't sell, right. I mean, they can't always can control the market. But I think a very good galleries should always also be aware of where to look, right? They shouldn't just be saying, like, oh, yeah, like, gallerist, you know, or like, oh, yeah, I love art, it's the key, you can love art, but you have to sell it, right, you have to, you know, get in the mindset of a business. So I think it's a great tip to, you know, as an artist, also be aware of how it works. That way, you don't get blindsided when, you know, things don't work out, which happens, I would say a lot more frequently than, than you'd expect, at least from, you know, the artists that I've spoken to who have worked with galleries long term and have changed galleries and have had galleries also who have been with them their entire careers. I've heard a lot of that same stuff. But that's the first time I hear about, you know, paying close attention to what the other people are doing. I think that's, that's a really great one. And then the Yeah, and, you know, the other thing that I find interesting, too, and I, I love how you accidentally got into a gallery, and I think it makes such a good story. But also, it gave you that opportunity to really see what what it can be like, unfortunately, you know, the state of that gallery not being the best, and that, you know, the gallery has not really been that great. But it really sets an example of oh, this is not how it's supposed to be.

Tony Pro: 28:09

Yeah, it's very important to to just and keep an eye, you know, and with social media these days, it's so much easier, but because we didn't have this as much back then. But if you're looking to get into a gallery, or if you have, or if you see, you know, if there's a gallery that you're interested in, or a gallery approaches, you talk to somebody else on their roster, you know, or at least at least two to three other artists that that that gallery represents. Ask them, you know, point blank, how are they to work with? How are they, you know, how soon do they pay you if they sell something? How do they promote your work? Because I'm telling you, I've been burned by so many bad galleries. I mean, they're, you know, and most of them are out of business now. You know, a lot of like, bad crooks. There were some crooks that had a gallery here in San Antonio, that that were running kind of a, you know, a fraud game, and really burned a lot of people including me. But there's several out there. I mean, and of course there there are some great galleries out there some really good gallery owners. You know, they, you know, they they have it tough to because rents are going up like crazy. So most of these galleries that the increased rents are difficult. A lot more artists are selling directly because of social media. So they're not making as much money because of that. So there's a balance for them. You know, and I made pretty good friends with one or two of those gallery owners that I that I work with, and it's important to establish that kind of relationship. You know, and I approach things like, you know, because nine times out of 10, collectors are going to want collectors want discounts when they come in and buy, because they know they can, unless you're, unless you're a completely hot selling artist, and no one's going to even touch your work, you know, unless you know, unless it's up for auction, or if it's a, if it's for sale by draw, then you're in a different, you're in a whole different seat, which I'm not in that seat yet. So most of the work that I sell out of the gallery, you know, you know, goes out at a discount, because collectors know, they can do that they do most most work that sits in a gallery, they'll come in, and they'll be like, You know what, you take 10% less for this or something like that. So I always just price accordingly. So I work that into a price. And you know, and sometimes somebody will, you know, one of the galleries will call me like, Hey, we got this guy, and this is what he offered. Nine times out of 10 These days, I would rather move the painting and sell it and get it out, versus just letting it sit back. And back when I first started out, I was a lot more stubborn about that kind of thing. And it didn't, it did did me no good because a the gallery doesn't like it, if they can't make the sale, and you're being stubborn. And, you know, and of course be it's, you know, money out of your pocket. So and because back then everything I painted I thought was just like, Oh, I'll never be able to paint this again. And this is a relic and it's like, you know, but these days, I'm just like, get a ton this out the door. I mean, I you know, I put a lot of love and, and thought into my work. But I'm not as it's not as precious to me as it used to be. Which is another reason I stopped painting my family members. Because I used to paint my wife and kids a lot. And I just I couldn't sell any of that stuff. Because I didn't want to, you know, so. But that's what I had at the time. And I was putting into galleries, and I'm like, like, well, we got this, you know, somebody wants to buy this painting of your wife and child, but they only want to pay, you know, 30% less, and I'm like, No, I'm not gonna sell that for that. So that's that's the other rub is like pick something that you know, pick a genre and subject matter that you can paint that you're not really attached to in the sense of like, you're it's near and dear to your heart. And you can't make that because it's at the end of the day, it's business transaction. You know, this is, you know, you're making a widget, and you're selling it for this price. And that person wants that widget for the wall. But if it's, you know, if that widget is like, you know, looks like one of your family members that you don't want to give up, probably not something you should be doing in a business transaction. Unless you can just completely let go and like, you know, so

Laura Arango Baier: 33:05

Oh, my God. Yeah, that's a very good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you said something that, you know, I was like, Ha, of course, you know, like, you know, taking into account that galleries do have, you know, these special deals with a lot of their collectors, because, you know, it's usually repeat buyers, right. Like, for example, Clint, the founder of a FASO. He talks a lot because he used to be a gallerist. He talks a lot about

Tony Pro: 33:32

Yeah, he actually, he was at the gallery that he left the gallery that burned me, here in San Antonio. He knows all about that. He wasn't asked him. He, like he left that, you know, the owners were different. And they sold so the guys that he was working with, they had sold to this crop who bought it. And there was a, I could write a movie, I could write a book about that whole episode, but for another time. Yeah. Wow.

Laura Arango Baier: 34:06

I'm gonna have to ask him about that. But yeah, he didn't mention that when he was a gallerist. Oftentimes, the it was always like 10% of the collectors that they had. They were the ones buying, like 80% was like yeah, they would just buy buy, buy buy, they wouldn't even look at the top right.

Tony Pro: 34:28

It's almost an addiction. For some collectors, I would love to be able to make friends with some addicts like that. I have all the wrong addicts in my life at this point, but oh no, no, there are Yeah, some you know, a lot there are some collectors out there that are you got some that are collecting for the for the you know, just because they have to have it and they love it and they want it on their walls. Then you have some that are just collecting for the business transaction for the for the investment Yeah, usually you'd like to find the collectors that are kind of in between that, but the ones that are like, gotta have it or, you know, they just they run out of wall space or, you know, those are the ones that that, you know, those are the ones that are actually really good. But a lot of times, they're the ones that are going to want the discount,

Laura Arango Baier: 35:20

you know? Exactly, exactly. It's, yeah, it's a very good thing to keep into account when you're pricing your work with the gallery. And then I did want to ask you, and I know, I didn't include this in the questions that I sent you over. But I was curious, like, normally, when you signed with a gallery, you have a contract, right? Do you have any.

Tony Pro: 35:42

Or the only time there's an actual signed contract, at the very beginning, is if it's an exclusive agreement, like if you sign on exclusively with one Gallery, and that's the only gallery you can sell with. Or if there's, they want an exclusive agreement to a particular radius around the city. So but most of the galleries I'm dealing with these days, it's all consignment agreement. So when you drop something off, they give you an consignment agreement, the terms are on there. But I, you know, the gallery up in Fredericksburg. There was I'm trying to remember, there was a time when they had, where they were kind of saying, you know, don't be in any, you know, I think there's there it's also kind of an unspoken rule, don't be in another gallery in the same city, or at least in the same like 200 mile radius. Right? So but I show, you know, I show my Western work with them. And then I have, there's another little small boutique gallery here in San Antonio, that I just, I have a couple of my, like, older pretty lady paintings in there. So it's completely different types of work. And I don't put any Western work here in town. So it's not a conflict of interest. But But typically, if you're signing a contract with a gallery, it's typically and it should be terms that are agreeable for both parties, like they need to promise you X amount of, you know, obviously, they tell you up front what your percentage is. And then they also need to, they need to tell the artist, they need to tell you the artist, what they're going to do for you for that percentage, you know, I mean, if it's just sitting on the wall, and they're, you know, but are they going to run an ad for you? Are they going to promote you actively? Are they going to call their their collectors and say, Hey, I've got this, you know, new artists, those are the things that the good galleries will do. Not all of them do that. So, and a lot of times you can iron that out in a contract. But lately, my experience has been it's not it's just kind of a email thing. And it's back and forth. This is what we pay. This is how we pay and when we pay it. And then it's consignment agreements only. So interesting. But you know, always always, you know, read everything through a lot of questions. Don't be you know, don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't think you're coming off dumb. Because some of these galleries some of these galleries are actual crooks, and they're, and they will prey on. There's not as many around anymore, I don't think because I think, you know, a lot of them got washed out like COVID and social media, actually. You know, there are actual Facebook forums where, you know, people you know, their private forums where they'll talk about galleries and other artists will ask questions about certain galleries or, or that'll just, it'll just go viral. They'll be like this artist who's owed money and they'll put it out there say, this guy screwed me and, you know, let the public be your judge. Exactly.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:13

Yeah. I I love that about you know, today's social media culture. I feel like in a way, it's also United a lot of artists in you know, the transparency of how things should be run. BoldBrush We inspire artists to inspire the world, because creating art creates magic, and the world is currently in desperate need of magic. BoldBrush provides artists with free art marketing, creativity, and business ideas and information. This show is an example. We also offer written resources, articles and a free monthly art contest open to all visual artists. We believe that fortune favors the bold brush, and if you believe that to sign up completely free at BoldBrush show.com. That's B Oh LD B R U S H show.com. The BoldBrush Show is sponsored by FASO. Now more than ever, it's crucial to have a website when you're an artist, especially if you want to be a professional in your career. Thankfully, with our special link faso.com forward slash podcast, you can make that come true. And also get over 50% off your first year on your artists website. Yes, that's basically the price of 12 lattes in one year, which I think is a really great deal considering that you get sleek and beautiful website templates that are also mobile friendly, e commerce print on demand in certain countries, as well as access to our marketing center that has our brand new art marketing calendar. And the art marketing calendar is something that you won't get with our competitor. The art marketing calendar gives you day by day, step by step guides on what you should be doing today, right now in order to get your artwork out there and seen by the right eyes so that you can make more sales this year. So if you want to change your life and actually meet your sales goal this year, then start now by going to our special link faso.com forward slash podcast. That's s a s o.com. Forward slash podcast. Yeah, which I think is an excellent, excellent thing that has happened. The downside is of course, those people who will send relentless messages saying, I want to buy your artwork is NF T's. Which we all know those are scams. Well,

Tony Pro: 41:21

yeah, I get I get five of those a day. It's just, you know, it's I just stopped replying to them. But yeah, but the Yeah, but the downside of what's happened with you with well, with with social media and YouTube, and I think this also applies to musicians as well, is that suddenly, you're not as rare as you think you were, you know, like, you know, like, with musicians, like guitarists, like great guitarists are great pianists. Like, suddenly, the only the, you know, back way back before social media, like you had people that were being promoted, that were great. It's like, oh, a child prodigy. But then like, nowadays, it seems almost common, because there's so many of them out there. And so it really waters down the supply. You know, it really waters things down in the art market. Because there's so many great artists out there. I mean, just think of how many, all these art schools like Florence Academy, and, you know, all these, you know, Waterstreet, and all these schools that are just pumping out art student after student that are just they're very talented, and they've got, you know, they get to a certain level, and it's like, okay, well, you know, really good. So the only way you can separate yourself from them is well, what do I have to say that's different from them? You know, what do I say? How do I say it? You know, figure out what they're missing. You know, you have all these great artists. And it's a pack of like, great artists that are moving in one direction, but it's like, okay, well, what are they missing? And if you figure out what they're what's missing, you'll be the one that's standing out above the crowd. So, yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 43:18

no, I can I can understand that. Yeah. Because I graduated from Grand Central Atelier, so I know how it is. And yeah, they do. You know, when when students come out of there, they graduate, they do amazing, but at the same time, you know, it really at that point, it's the Okay, now what, right, it's like, now, what do you want to do with all of this? What are you going to do with everything you've learned? I mean, right, you do anything. And I feel like that's the the biggest challenge that a lot of those students face after attending those academies. There's,

Tony Pro: 43:48

there's only so much wall space in our Katy gallery. So that's, that's how it is. And it's like, and because a lot of other galleries that used to show their work, you know, Steve, I mean, Steve's really hung in there, and he's done great, you know, but there used to be a lot more galleries that sold that work, but I think a lot of that kind of washed away over the years. But, you know, I mean, that's why I don't even I won't even go near the competitions anymore. I won't enter my work anymore. Because I can't compete with a lot of these younger artists that are coming out of these, you know, coming out of the schools, like, you know, like, like yourself, you know, I mean, they're, they're training so many ethnically prolific artists that I don't even I had this conversation with my peers that are my age, and, you know, who are all who have been like, like, really revered artists. They're like, yeah, there's no reason to compete anymore. Because, you know, some of these artists are just fantastic. And they're, you know, they, you know, it's not it's not it's become very common for artists to get really good if they You've got the drive and the skill, and the time and the money, you know. So for me, I'm just like, I'm not going to compete anymore, I'm not going to, you know, I did that years ago, and I just, I have no interest in doing it, doing it on that level, you know, I'll hang out my shingle to dry and put my, my art in galleries. And if it sells, it sells, you know, and I'll just keep reinventing myself that way, you know, what's the next painting? What's the next interesting painting? That's the way I have to look at it. You know, and, and I think there's some artists, you know, there's, I look at artists like Scott Burdick and Sue Lyon, you know, they've reinvented themselves so many times, and they're doing such a great job, they produce so much interesting work. And, and that's actually a good way of approaching it, because, you know, being a realist artists, you know, there's only so much realism, or figurative or classical realism that you can do that, it that, I mean, it doesn't get old in the sense that, you know, I love looking at it, I love, I respect what goes into it, but at some point, you have to go beyond and start designing, start designing the work and start creating something more than just a very still image of a figure or whatever it is. Yeah. And I, it took me a long time to learn, understand that, not learn it and understand it. Because I, you know, it's, you know, when you can learn a map to master you know, replicating something, in a realist tradition. That's like a big feat for a lot. It's a, it's a great feat to get to, and, but once you get there, it's like, okay, well, what's next? And, you know, like, we were saying, it's just, it's really it's, it's, it's something you have to come to understand how to move beyond. And I've seen other people do it. That were my peers, you know, some of my peers, they just got tired of renderings, and I'm sick of rendering. Well, I got to a point where I got tired of rendering, I don't want to render anymore. You know, it's like it's, but and then there'll be other people that just absolutely love it. They can just lock in, they can zone in, like guy like Dan Daniel sprit, like, he's been painting just incredible work for so many years, and I just don't know how, like, he must have some kind of a, a brain function where he can just turn off all the noise and just zone in on what he's doing. Like, I cannot do that. No, first of all, I live in a house with four kids. So I can't sit and render something, because my studios in my house, and I can't, I cannot just turn things off, you know, and I have, and I'm, you know, I've got to walk away from my easel a lot. Just because I can't focus, you know, and I don't know, if it's some kind of attention deficit and say, I've never been diagnosed with any of that, but I probably have it. And I but I literally can't sit there and just render I used to when I was younger, you know, as an art school and all that I could do it then. But the older I get, I'm like, can't these things just paint themselves?

Laura Arango Baier: 48:30

Oh, my God, I totally feel that I'm actually diagnosed. And I can assure you, I would say majority of painters probably have undiagnosed ADHD. And probably one of the reasons you can do it at school is because you had to, that's like one of the biggest motivators for people with ADHD. It's like, oh, you have to so there's no choice. But when you're left here on devices, it's like, I don't want to,

Tony Pro: 48:54

there had to be some kind of there had to be some kind of like a feeling of competition also helped that to like, I'm sure you guys, I'm sure you guys had it at your school, we had an RS. And it was like, it's like who's competing, you know, who's gonna get the nod of the teacher, you know, who's gonna get the pat on the back for the week. I mean, that's been going on, since time immemorial, in every art school. So I think that's why, you know, a lot of these a lot of Academy students and, you know, they produce the best work because they're under the harshest conditions. Yeah. And they don't have to worry about, you know, you know, there's no real thought of having to sell it. And it's just, you know, you're, you know, you're just dumping pure time, energy into it, not worrying about money.

Laura Arango Baier: 49:42

Exactly. Exactly. And that's, that's really, yeah, you know, that, that brings up the whole idea of like, man, you know, I could totally just focus on one painting for a month, right? But if you want to make a living, unless you're very, very well I feel you don't have to care. It's it's almost irresponsible. But like a really great example of someone who's transcended that right is Odd Nerdrum, he maybe paints six paintings a year, and that's a lot. Because he's at, you know, late stages of his career, he has collectors, he's, of course, relaxing. So he has, you know, he just chills. But you know, until you reach that point, right, you definitely have to take into consideration like, Okay, I gotta pay my bills. And you know, I gotta do this, I gotta do that. How am I supplement my income, you know, like workshops or teaching or, you know, doing studio sales, which, again, unless you're very, very wealthy, is what you got to do. And I'd say the majority of the painters that I have interviewed, have absolutely not come from wealth, and have, you know, definitely, you know, lit their assets on fire and said, I'm gonna frickin do this, no matter what. And I wanted to ask you, you know, how was that like, for you to jump from, you know, working for these these entertainment industries, and to jump right into, like, full time artists, like, I quit these jobs. And now I'm just gonna focus on this, what was that, like?

Tony Pro: 51:10

It was very difficult, it was extremely difficult. And I went through, was part of the reason I moved here to Texas was because, you know, we didn't, we never went into foreclosure or anything like that, um, because I had a lot of equity in my home there in California. But you know, it was very tough. I mean, it was, you know, income was going like this when I was working. And then when I stopped and income went like this, and the bills went like that, you know, and it was, of course, we had, I had three young kids at the time, too. And so, you know, that was a big factor in the decision to move here to Texas, because it's just much more affordable here. So, you know, and, but I had, you know, there's things you have to do as an artist to survive, you know, so I had to do a lot of freelance, I did a lot of commissioned work that I didn't want to do, you know, but you got to do it. So it's not, it was not an easy process, and it's still, you know, it still can be a very scary scenario. You know, COVID, for COVID was scary, but, oddly enough, you know, the galleries were doing well, and they were able to move work during COVID. I never saw that coming, I didn't think that would be able to happen, but it did, you know, people were just at home, looking at blank walls. So like, Well, I think I want to do this, you know, yeah, that worked out. So but, um, no, you just have to, you have to do what's right, by your situation. You know, if you're, if you're, you know, it's a different situation, if you're married with a family, you have to kind of make decisions based on that, you know, as you know, and I'm sure most artists know, being an artist is a very solitary, selfish life. And, you know, a lot of times your spouse is not going to understand a lot of decisions that you make, and that, you know, that initial decision, well, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to do, I'm going to be a fine artist full time, and I'm going to do this, and then it's trying to explain that to your significant others is, it's not a good conversation, and that that a lot of times that's held against you. And so I had to make a lot of concessions, I had to, you know, I had to still work on on certain level, I still, you know, still do advertising if I need to, just because I was good at that. It's kind of brainless work to me, just because I did it for so many years. And, and it also helps for marketing my work, too. I mean, it's, you know, a lot of artists don't know how to market their work. So, I was able to do that. And since I was in, when I was in the entertainment history, I was doing a lot of video work as well. I did a lot of editing, I did a lot of motion graphics. So back in like 2006, when the housing market was really taking a dive in United States. You know, that was affecting artists because, you know, collectors were not spending money on art. So a lot of my, you know, myself included, that's kind of when I went I got laid off from one of the movie studios at that point. So I had nothing going. So back then I created the first online live art school So I worked with my cousin who was a web programmer. A really a really good one. And so he and I kind of put this website together, it's still around. It's called suraiya.com. I haven't updated it in many years in the sense of how it was the functionality of that. But what I did was I was at the time I put my, my drawing teacher, I, we did live classes online that people could watch, we had people all over the world, because Glenn was very well known. He was a very well known comic book, illustrator. And so we had people all over the world chiming in, and they could ask questions, they could type in and ask questions, and no one else was doing it at the time. Wow. Of course, nowadays, it's like everywhere, you know, people have it everywhere. But But that, you know, and so that was getting that was getting money for my artists, friends. So I would put my artists friends. You know, I did one with Dave cast, and then one or two with him. And then we did. We did, I did one with Logan shares. We did. And I did a whole class of Glenn's a couple semesters of classes of Glen's and I'm so glad I did, because it's the only video of him in a classroom, you know, like working so. So we have his education, his knowledge, in terms of the classes, and of course, all the dry jokes, he was wildly funny. So but those are the kinds of things that I had to just kind of pivot like, Okay, well, I'm not selling any work, and I'm not making money in my day job. Because I have no day job anymore. So what do I do? So you just always have to, like, pivot, you, you know, the, the old, the US Marines, you have to improvise, overcome and adapt. You have to just figure out what's next? What can I do? And there's just, you know, I feel like my life has been nothing but that trying to figure out okay, well, that's not working. Let's try this. Let's try that. And, you know, you eventually keep slugging along, something will click something will happen, you know, so, but that's kind of where I've, where I've landed these days, you know? Yeah. And it's just, I just paint and produce, and I try to put out as much work as I can. And yeah, so yeah. Ya know,

Laura Arango Baier: 57:45

that's the complex part, you know, about being a, an artist. You know, you definitely, like you said, pivoting and supplementing income in different ways, and a lot of problem solving. You know, it's so funny how being an artist is so much problem solving in the canvas and outside of the canvas. But then also, you know, being being prepared for those moments when, oh, my god, the economy just completely crashed. Now, what, which I've interviewed quite a few artists who, you know, they went through that as well, obviously, because their careers began before. And they all talk about how frickin awful it was, how hard it was. And of course, you still overcame? Because, you know, that's the part of adapting, right, you still have to, you got to do something. And the other challenging bit, right is production, right? As an artist, you are the producer, the salesman, the everything. So so much of your income depends on production. And it's obvious, but when you really consider it, it's kind of it can become a burden. Especially if you know, if it's, if a person who wants to be an artist is seeking something a little bit maybe easier. It's not necessarily an easy career, unless you enjoy painting so much that you can just produce produce produce, right? So yeah, yeah, you make some really great points. And then you personally do you like to, or, like, do you use social media to sell some of your work? Or do you leave that all in the hands of the gallery?

Tony Pro: 59:23

I do both. I put it out there. Sometimes I'll put it out there and see if anybody bites, but there are you know, and it also depends on how well the gallery is doing for me. If I if a gallery is like actively, you know, pushing my work and they're selling a lot of it, I'll give them first right of refusal, I'll send it to them say hey, are you interested in taking this? You know, but if, you know, if I don't see a gallery actually promoting me actively or whatever, and I just happen to be in their stable. You know, they'll be the last ones to get it because, you know, it's just I If it's a reward system for me, it's like if you're gonna, you're gonna get rewarded with new work, if you're selling the old, if you're selling what's there, but if you've just put my work, you know, on some back wall, don't bother.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:17

Yeah, it's only fair. No,

Tony Pro: 1:00:18

they're not for its performance. It's all based on performance.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:00:22

Exactly. I mean, they shouldn't, they shouldn't expect any, I guess, like any reward for not doing their job, right. I mean, if they're not actively seeking to collector, it's like, why. And that's, again, another great point to make, especially if anyone listening to this podcast is really looking into working with galleries, which I've heard also some people compared to a marriage, right, where they, they say this, it, you know, it can, it can be really, really good, or it can be really, really bad. And if it's great, you know, it's probably a lifetime. And if it's bad, you know, it can be very bad. Right, but, yeah, but you know, we have more of a hybrid sort of situation these days. So, it, you know, there's a little bit of room for everyone, I do hope in the near future, you know, because of the rise of AI and all these things that there might actually be more people interested in actual real artwork. And hopefully, we may see more galleries popping up, I'm crossing my fingers. Because, you know, it's a, I like the old traditional gallery system. It has its faults, you know, nothing's perfect, but, you know, a really good gallerist can really make a very big difference in someone's life.

Tony Pro: 1:01:38

For sure, for sure, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:01:41

And I hope you don't mind. I also wanted to ask you just really quick about your work. Because I really wanted to ask you, though, we dove dove right into like, the galleries and I was like, Oh, this is fascinating. But I wanted to know how, how is illustration? You know, how has it influenced your work today?

Tony Pro: 1:02:00

Well, for what I do today, it's, you know, the illustration part of most of the most of the respected Western artists that I follow, and have followed forever, have all started started their careers as illustrators, and a lot of them were illustrators, and their work just turned into fine art because it became valuable. Because a lot of the a lot of the, a lot of the illustrators, like, you know, like Maynard Dixon, he did a lot of illustration work for Sunset Magazine, and some of these other magazines, you know, way back in the 30s 40s 50s. The work was used as illustration initially, and then they also did, they also did fine art on the side, or, you know, they would paint other paintings that weren't necessarily used for illustrations, but, you know, they were more well known for their illustrations back then. But you know, so, of course, when we were in school, everything that Glenn would reference was usually he was referencing an illustrator, unless it was Sargent. And occasionally Sariah. But most of his references were, you know, Dean Cornwell, or Frank Brangwyn. Or, you know, Norman Rockwell, or was like, his number one guy that he always talked about? And of course, Norman Rockwell. I mean, you know, his, his work now is, of course, super expensive, and it's, like, revered by the fine art museums, all around. But it's all it was all illustration. You know, it was it was, you know, I mean, he, I think he started doing some more fine art, minority type work later in his career, but, you know, the early stuff, it was all done for illustration. So, it lends itself and I think, the most successful some of the most successful Western artists and, and fine artists, you know, started out as illustrators, I mean, terpening being one of them. I mean, I think he's his, he's probably the highest, the highest sold living Western artist. His work sells the highest, and he's still living, thankfully. But he was he was a movie poster that he did the garden with the wind movie poster. I mean, that was that his background like he, yeah, he was a big movie poster guy. Then he moved into other types of illustration. And, you know, and really, the genre that I work in, it's your telling story, which is what illustration is so you're telling story. Well Whether it's about, and it's mostly historical, or it's, or you're telling a story of a scene, I mean, it could be contemporary cowboy or native work. But it's very much illustration in the sense of your illustrating story. So, it kind of it works hand in hand, you know? Yeah,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:05:24

no, you know, I'm actually I love talking to artists who have begun as illustrators, because I feel like they have this advantage, which is that they, they have to see the narrative of things before, you know, like, the narrative almost becomes a precursor to the design and to the development of a finished piece instead of someone just making a finished piece, and then adding narrative on top, which tends to happen with a lot of realist painters who are especially, you know, the ones who have trained in academic schools. The narrative almost seems like a secondary thing, which I think is kind of disappointing. Yeah. But with illustration, you know, it is the primary thing, how do you storytelling through the gesture? How do storytelling through the composition, the colors, like, it's so complex? So I do think, you know, for, for painters who want to be narrative, you know, definitely looking at illustration, and reading about illustration, and trying it out, is probably one of the better things to do. Because, you know, there's, there's skill for skill sake, but then there's, you know, illustration, which elevates narrative, which is, you know, the goal of a lot of realist painters, I would say, is to become a narrative painter.

Tony Pro: 1:06:41

Yeah. And there's so much more. There's much more deeper concepts and discussions of composition and design. In illustration, which you may or may not get in an in a, like a fine art academy. You know, it's like, we actually had in our drawing classes, we had specific exercises Glenn would give us, whereas he would take, he would have us take, old, you know, book covers, like novel covers of like, you know, or pulp pulp magazine covers or pulp novel covers, and recreate them, we'd have to shoot our classmates, we would take pictures of our classmates, and recreate the scene in charcoal. You know, and obviously blown, because, you know, there was little novel covers, but, you know, we have to recreate them. Or we could, we could use, like, we could do like fake movie posters and do that, but there was. And so you're learning so much more about composition, design, pattern of light and dark, the abstract of it, versus, in some realist Academy, where you're just learning to, you know, sight size method and all that that's, it's a completely different way of learning. I'm not saying it's good or bad. It's just for what I ended up doing. I mean, it was definitely an illustration School, which is what, and that was the whole reason I went there. When my brother went there, he was specifically going there to be an illustrator. And which he did, you know, but it naturally lend itself to the Western art world, which is why there are so many illustrated X illustrators, as Western artists, right?

Laura Arango Baier: 1:08:29

It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And I love that I actually want to really look into illustration two, because I, you know, having gone to two academic schools, you know, hoping to learn something about composition as much as I had hoped. So, I think looking into illustration is probably my next best step.

Tony Pro: 1:08:53

But get any book, any book by Andrew Loomis, get any book from him create creative illustration is probably the best one. Oh, and that's just I mean, it's still in print. Pick that up. It's got everything in there. I mean, it's of course, it's from the 50s. But it's still the information in there is still it's just gold. It's just pure gold.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:09:19

Yeah, yeah. I remember I had a high school teacher who she would tell me about Andrew Loomis, and she had some of the PDFs of his books in the flipped classroom computer, which is really great. So I think I'll definitely revisit that. Yeah, so I wanted to ask you to please tell us about the night of artists show that's happening in March.

Tony Pro: 1:09:41

Right, so every year there's a show here in San Antonio at the Briscoe Museum of Western art. Last year was my first year in the show. As was it was Jeremy liftings first year in the show, so he got to come out. We hung out for He stayed with us. And he his wife, he and I have known each other since art school. And we've been really good friends since then. So and our kids grew up together when we lived in LA so. So anyway, so they. So they do the show here every year. And they invite the best from the Best Western artists from around the country, it's want to say I think it's a, I want to say it's about 65 artists, or so give or take a few. And it's usually it starts out, it's a whole weekend of things. There's this, there's an auction. And then there's a couple of nights of show and sale. And then. So I've done a few pieces that I have just getting photographed. I don't have them readily available yet. But I'll be releasing those soon. I'll have a minimum of three pieces, I believe in the show. So I work towards that. And it's always a good time. It's fun, and good to see a lot of old friends who come to town. Not to make people come visit me here in Texas, in California, so but it's good to it's fun to see them. So. But I don't you know, I don't teach anymore. I used to teach heavily and used to promote a lot of workshops and that kind of thing. I don't I haven't, I'll probably I probably will do a workshop. Next year somewhere, I'm not sure where I'm thinking maybe Scottsdale, or I'm not opposed to just something exotic either. I'd love to do those. But the the rub is, is that there are so many other great artists that that are actively teaching and that kind of thing. It's like, you know, the, you know, the places the teaching has kind of that's that's gotten watered down so much too, because there's so many other great because of social media, like I couldn't, I had, you know, but prior to social media, I had so many people contacting me to do workshops. And nowadays, it's like you don't hear it, because it's like, you just browse around on Instagram. They're like, Oh, my God, that guy's great. Or this girl is great. Oh, my God, this girl look at that. And then, you know, they just, and so it's like, you know, it's not a. Again, I taught for 20 years. So I just I just got burned out. You know, after a while I hear myself, I hear myself talking. And I'm saying the same thing over and over again, like teaching a weekly class. I just got burned out. Like I think I'm done teaching. And it's you know, it's funny, I taught both adults, and I taught. I taught younger students. And the younger students were good, but at the college level. I could not get them to get off their phones during figure drawing classes, right? So they would be on their phones, like watching. So I taught I taught here at the University of Incarnate Word. And I was teaching a figure drawing class for game designers. And so they weren't interested in the model that they were drawing. They were more interested watching YouTube of of other people playing video games on YouTube. And I'm just like, okay, come on, guys. So I had to tell kids, no more. No more phones out. You can listen to music, but don't, you know, don't you got to pay attention to the model. So that got I got old real fast, like, I'm not doing that anymore. And then teaching adults, it's like, everybody already, you know, they if an adult's taken one drawing class, they think they know everything. And when you teach them painting, it's like, nine times out of 10 everyone's problems is the drawing and not the painting. Like Well, I already took a drawing class, I want to do that. And it's like, so it again, it was just like this, you know, chasing students, and I'm just like, I just don't want to do this anymore. It's like, so at some point, I will probably do a rare workshop. But, you know, at this point, I'm just not into it anymore.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:14:26

I totally understand that. Um, you know, I It's so funny that you see, you know, these these older students are very stubborn. And it's so funny. It's like you can't you can't render yourself out of a bad drawing. You just can't I mean 90% Yeah, 90% of an excellent painting is excellent drawing. The rest is just the cherry on top. Like you cannot really cannot overcome that. But you know, a lot of people don't get that because they are so I guess they romanticize the the rendering part like Go, the rendering is what makes it pretty. It's like no, if you have a really messed up face, and you perfectly render that face, it's just it's still gonna look deformed, no matter how wonderful you render. Unless that's the intention. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I would, I would consider taking a workshop with you, I feel like I would want to learn more about, you know, the illustrative techniques and storytelling, I feel that that's, you know, something that's lacking so much. And something that would be a really good thing to do a workshop on is, you know, the narrative illustrative approach to fine painting, you know, that might be you know, a lot of people

Tony Pro: 1:15:37

that do that, because it that's, it's a very complex subject, and it takes a long time. Most of the workshops that are out there, it's just like, you know, head painting with so and so or figure painting with that person, or, yeah, you know, or still life painting with that person. It's, you can do those, like on a three to five day, or you can even do a one day, and it's easy for the artists to get in and out. A composition workshop that's like a, that takes a lot of prep, and a lot of planning would be great. I'd love to take one myself, but I had to, I had to learn the hard way and just, you know, I just, I just had to just learn it myself and just figure out what to do. Oh, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:24

I mean, that's one way you know, you learn through just doing I just wish, you know, like, I think, you know, just like you. There are a lot of people out there seeking, you know, a composition course of some sort. And thanks to the internet, that might actually make it a lot easier. So, something to

Tony Pro: 1:16:41

consider. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Well,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:16:45

yeah. But speaking up, you do have online courses, right?

Tony Pro: 1:16:49

I do. Yeah. Well, I've got I have a few DVDs that I've done. In the past. It's just they're all a prima portrait DVDs that I've done. They they're you know, they're available on my website, and also on miser Roya website, which is still there. And so Roya is the AR O L L. A. So it's, it stands for Zoran Sargent and Sariah. It's the three they're three names that are combined in one, which is where that name comes from. People thought it was like, like certain people thought it was like Zorrilla like a gorilla with a Z. And I'm like, No, it's not thriller. So people like who's like the most people don't know who? Zorn or Suraiya is? Most

Laura Arango Baier: 1:17:34

people are? Yeah, it's really important painter from Spain, sir. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but where else can people find more of your work?

Tony Pro: 1:17:47

So right now my work is in Santa Fe at the Meijer gallery. And then also in Fredericksburg, Texas at insight gallery, here in San Antonio, women and RJ gallery and Alamo Heights. And don't want to forget my good friend out in Scottsdale, th Brennan fine art. So out on Main Street there in Scottsdale, my work is there. And I think that's it. For now. Remember, there might be there might be a couple of paintings scattered at some gallery that I forgotten about. And they forgotten about me. But yeah, that's, that's, that's about it. I did have one painting that was just acquired by the Hilbert Museum of California art, which is down in Orange County in California. And that building is going up I guess next year, because they're building a whole new museum. And it's almost done from what I'm told. So that will be in the permanent collection there, which is kind of cool. And yeah, and then of course in March here in San Antonio, with the Briscoe Museum of Western art, we'll be there. Great

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:03

March.

Tony Pro: 1:19:04

What it is but

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:05

yeah, I'm sure people can go to your website.

Tony Pro: 1:19:09

Oh, yeah. I update that from the east. The best way to follow me is Instagram everything Instagram Facebook. That's that's what I do most of

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:19

my updating on so right. So what's your Instagram handle?

Tony Pro: 1:19:24

So the Instagram handle is Tony pro underscore fine underscore art. So Tony pro underscore fine underscore art.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:36

Well, thank you, Tony. Around there. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, this was awesome. Hope

Tony Pro: 1:19:44

you got something from it. Learn a few jokes. And you know,

Laura Arango Baier: 1:19:48

I would say heck yes.