Ken Goshen: 0:00

A lot of artists fall short because, you know, it's a kind of narcissistic career. So it's always like me, me, me, me, me, but me, me me don't pay the bills, what pays the bills is how you can figure out how the me can help all of us how the me can be translated into some kind of activity that other people value enough to ask you to come back.

Laura Baier: 0:20

Welcome to the BoldBrush podcast where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Ringo bear, and I'm your host. Recently, Cosmo cash sat down with Ken Goshen, a New York City based artists and educator with a background in classical painting and printmaking. He sat down to ask him about some really great business tips for artists as well as marketing and how to work with brands. So let's hear him out.

Ken Goshen: 0:46

So my name is Ken Goshen, I'm originally from Israel. I was born in Jerusalem. And I moved to New York when I was 25. I did my classical painting education in Tel Aviv, three years at a school called Tata Hana under the guidance of two phenomenal painters, and Gil shoni, and David Nippo. Then I moved to New York, and I did my degree and contemporary art at Parsons School of Design. And I've been in New York ever since. And I love it here.

Laura Baier: 1:15

And where are you right now.

Ken Goshen: 1:18

So right now at the apartment of the mysterious Cosmo cash, who you know, as one of bold brushes, superstars, and Cosmo, aside from knowing how to help artists make money, and all such good stuff is also an avid animal enthusiast. And it is a zoo over here. And I am literally recording this podcast with a bird on my head. I you know, I'm as surprised to see it as you guys are to listen to it. And yet, that is the case. Oh, yeah. So you might be so so if you hear any chirping, that that is the bird and he's kind of nibbling on my hair. So the extent to which this will come through in the audio remains to be determined.

Laura Baier: 2:07

What is the birds name?

Ken Goshen: 2:09

So I named the bird the bird is called to key which is parrots in Hebrew.

Laura Baier: 2:13

Did you name any of the other animals? So oh my god,

Ken Goshen: 2:17

the cat is like destroying my bag as we speak. So yes, I did I did. I think I named how many out of the how many? Did I named for them? Three of them. We got Zion, which you named? We got hurt. So which I named that's a cat. We got two key. That's two. We got Solomon was a dog. I suggested that name, I think. And who else? Oh, there was a gold as a former member of the family.

Laura Baier: 2:50

Tell us about your life in February of 2020.

Ken Goshen: 2:53

February 2020. So that's right before the pandemic hits, right. So at that point, I was mostly teaching in person, I was bringing groups to the Met with sketchbooks, and just kind of learning from the Masters in person, which I still believe is one of New York's gems that you can go to that museum and really learn from the Masters directly. Now, as soon as the pandemic hit, I actually was no longer able to take students to the Met, because as you may imagine, the Met was closed. And so I was in a pretty serious pickle about how I can keep my teaching endeavors going. So I started focusing on the only thing that made sense during the pandemic, when we're all isolated, and in our homes, which was social media. So I basically turned my attention to trying to figure out how I can leverage these online platforms to distribute the messages that I really care about. And what I ended up discovering is that a lot of people were stuck in their home looking for inspirations looking for how to cultivate their skills, how to how to go deeper into their hobbies. And I found that it was it was really well received that was trying to put information and knowledge out there that people can use while they're stuck in their home. And people were just really grateful and very welcoming. So all in all, I think it was the right move. Walk us through March 1. It's March 1 2020. And I have already been focusing on Instagram for a little while. So I think I have about 6000 followers at that point. And I get a DM from Cosmo asked him to come over to shoot some content. Now for me shooting content was already onerous because I didn't like setting up the cameras and all that stuff. Like I was doing it because I felt like it was necessary but I thought it was a great opportunity if somebody else comes along and gives me their own perspective and takes care of basically the logistics behind it. So I figured this would be a fantastic collab. abrasion. It was the first time that I was about to invite anybody into my studio to document my process. So I was a little nervous. But I thought that that meeting went really well. Cosmo took a lot of content, and was excited to share it on multiple pages that he was involved with. And yeah, ever since then we've been hanging out.

Laura Baier: 5:21

What exchange did you have with Cosmo that day?

Ken Goshen: 5:24

So Cosmo, was insisting or not insisting, basically pitching or suggesting that I share the content that he made on my own page. Now, as you may or may not know, I'm a bit of like, I'm a bit of a stickler for aesthetics. And I wasn't totally on board with with, how would you say the cinematic vision of Cosmo. So I politely said, you know, you can do whatever you want with this content, but I will share to my page, whatever I think is best. And I feel like from what I understood, Cosmo never received this kind of like, push back. And so it ended up being really fun, because you basically, he looked at me, shocked, put his back down, we both realized that this converse, this, this interaction is gonna go on longer than expected. And we just both kind of started debating and arguing about what works best, what are we trying to do here? What kind of content are we trying to like, spread into the world to like, achieve our goals and things like that. And it just became like a really fruitful discussion around what social media can be in the era of the pandemic, and how artists can really step into this discourse and make a splash. And we basically discovered that we have incredibly productive disagreements. And that we can keep that conversation going. And both of us will learn and grow from this collaborative interaction, which was really fun for me, because I'm assuming most of you are artists who are listening to this, you guys know that being an artist, it's a pretty lonely job. So the majority of the time, you're just alone in your studio, and you don't have an extra set of eyes. And you don't have this extra person that you can kind of bounce feedback around with. And so for me, this was also really fun, because I'm only used to hearing my voice for the duration of the day. And it was just fun to discover that to create this kind of connection. I think it was just, it was just a blessing. You know,

Laura Baier: 7:23

how heated did the disagreements become? Well,

Ken Goshen: 7:27

I think it became it became pretty Talmudic, right. There was there was passion on both ends, right? Because both of us are, feel strongly about our craft, right? So. And we basically had a lot of disagreements or different visions about every kind of new feature that came online on Instagram. So for example, we, we had long conversations that day, reels came out and caused them I was thinking, Oh, they should be done this way. And I was thinking, Oh, they should be done another way. And Cosmo had a specific strategy with regards to how many tags you can put in a post. And I was thinking, No, you know, we need a different kind of number. And it just became really nerdy in a way that I very much appreciate. Because I like understanding the nitty gritty, the nuts and bolts of any kind of activity that I'm a part of. So as much as I, you know, didn't want or didn't envision that my life would take me on a path that was social media, like centered around social media, on some level, the interaction with somebody that takes that role very seriously, made me more accepting of this role that I've that I've taken because it made us feel less silly and less superficial, and more like something that can be done seriously.

Laura Baier: 8:52

During the pandemic, what was your growth rate, like on Insta?

Ken Goshen: 8:58

So Cosmo recommended, I don't look at notifications. So I can't say that. I know what, what the notifications looked like. I haven't even opened them. I barely do. But the growth was some some weeks were really, really crazy. I can't say I remember specifics, but but we can just say that. You were saying February 2020. We were at 6000. And right now I'm at like 214,000. So that's a I'm not good at Math on the Spot.

Laura Baier: 9:31

Well, the math is actually a growth of 208,000 followers. According to Cozumel, Ken's growth was about 7000 followers per week. When did you set up Patreon? Why did you set your prices the way you did and how has it been going since then?

Ken Goshen: 9:47

Basically, the the model that I have going right now is centered entirely around Patreon. And the different tiers that I have going right now like I had some other tiers that I've that I've scrapped but would have would have ended up sticking with is to have a $2 tier, a $10 tier and the $50 tier, the $2 tier is something that I'm offering that I think is kind of a competitive edge, a lot of artists don't offer that. And this tier is what I call the live learning experience, people who are signed up for this dear, they have access to a sample of I think about 15 videos or something like that. But mostly, the attraction is that they get access to all the live lessons, and I do around three or four a month. So that's almost every week. And for $2, that ends up being like a quarter per live lesson. So it's just, it's just super worthwhile for anybody who wants to be part of the Live community. It's, it's just a great return on investment. And then the you call it upselling. It's a very business business savvy warding. But I would say the kind of like increasing your commitment, level two, the $10 tier makes it possible for you to watch, whenever you want any video, all of them are recorded. So you basically get access to the entire archive of all the lessons that already happened, right. So you, you get access to like two years of recording lessons, and recorded lessons by now it's like over 100 or 150 hours of content, I don't even know. And the idea here is, if you really want to make sure that you're how to explain this. Basically, the the the thing that I think I do differently from a lot of other artists who are on Patreon, and there are many artists on Patreon is most of them focus on just recorded produced content. But I'm extremely comfortable. And I prefer the live interaction with the students. Because despite the fact that you know, all artists pay a lot of attention to making sure that we explain everything as clearly as possible. There's nothing like the student questions to kind of enlighten you on whether or not something actually is clear, right. So I would start a listen. And I would give my whole spiel and give the whole theoretical overview. And then I would get some some questions from the audience that allows me to go deeper on something that I didn't even imagine was going to be necessary. So it's actually the questions that are coming back from the students that are very enriching to the lesson. And also, it's a great opportunity for students to sometimes ask stuff that are not directly related to the lesson curriculum that I planned. And it takes the conversation in really interesting, interesting directions. And most artists are less comfortable to like, stand there every week, two hours in front of the camera, and both answer questions and also paint live demos, this is something that I I kind of pushed very hard because I really enjoy it. And thinking about this in retrospect, I feel like it it actually filled the void that the pandemic has created for me because I'm also a performing musician. And during the pandemic, I wasn't able to get on stage, my band didn't practice, we were kind of like not knowing how that thing was going to even continue. And so my, my, my, how do you call it my hunger for standing in front of a crowd, like I love it. So I kind of managed to get a little bit of a taste of that performative aspect. By doing these these live lessons. And at first, it was really, really stressful. But right now, I'm just, I just love it. It's it's almost like my favorite part of the week to just stand there and have, you know, people joining in from all over the world. So the first thing I do at the beginning of every lesson is I kind of ask everybody to come into the chat and say hello, just for me to see that they know where the chat is because the chat is important. But then I also ask them to say like, where are they coming from? Right? So I get a lot from the United States a lot from Europe, I have students from Singapore, I have students from Australia, I have students from basically everywhere, which is something that it's amazing. It's facilitated by by social media. And it's such a positive aspect of this whole online teaching endeavor that you can really reach people that you otherwise would never have met. And now I feel like I really know them. And they're posting their work to my Discord. So I can even see their paintings. And it's it's just a fantastic community. And then, you know, the people who, once they, once they become a part of the community and they enjoy the live lessons, it kind of becomes almost like a natural transition that they would want to see all the lessons that they missed all the lessons that happened over the past year. So then they join that $10 tier if they want to do that. And the$50 tier is a smaller tier, I have a limited number of spots there. But these students get once a month live personal critique with me like a critique group. So we all come together, they all send me works to my email, and then I bring up the works one by one and I give them in depth feedback about how to how to grow in the direction that they're trying to embark on. So it's just It's just so much fun. And I gotta say that I'm usually I feel like I'm usually more clear headed than articulate. But in all honesty, I have a bird on my head. And Cosmo is just taking photos of the bird on my head. So the listeners should know this, please don't cut this out. He's asleep on my head. This is amazing. It's all documented I hope BoldBrush posts all of this.

Laura Baier: 15:22

And now for a specific question about Commission's that Cosmo asked can cause him

Ken Goshen: 15:27

was asking about whether or not Patreon and social media has gotten me commissioned work. And it has more than once. And what I've discovered is that it's kind of amazing to see that the same people who are really interested in learning how to paint it kind of it's a it's almost something that I guess I should have known. But these are also the people who appreciate fine painting and appreciate the style that I that I work in. So these these are also potential clients for commissioned work. And I've found it really gratifying that these same people that I'm used to interacting with on a student teacher relationship are are also becoming clients of my work and more than once I've been getting requests. People want to purchase work some some of that work. I'm still holding on reserved people. I remember your requests. But that is also definitely been fruitful.

Laura Baier: 16:27

There seems to be a rumor going around about Cosmo and Ken coordinating their posts at the same time. That here's the truth.

Ken Goshen: 16:36

Okay, so I just from what I'm hearing right now, it seems like the word on the street is that Cosmo and I just kind of do everything together and in coordination and in sync. And it is, it is funny because I kind of wish that we had some of our conversations on the record. Cosmo refuses to have his voice be known, which I'm working on people and hopefully I'll bring you his voice in the future on my podcast called Art School with Ken Goshen, but more on that in the future. What I want to say to you guys is if only I recorded some of our phone conversations when we literally argue for hours and totally disagree on things. And then, you know, his wife and my girlfriend have to like mitigate and say, No, remember, you guys are friends. You guys are collaborators come together and like we we definitely do not walk in lockstep. And I think this is this is part of what makes this relationship so productive because you don't want you don't want to be surrounded by yes men, you don't want to be surrounded by just people who will tell you Oh, it's exactly how your preconceived notions are, you know, just reinforce your your, your own understanding. Now you need you need to be surrounding yourself with collaborators who will offer pushback, who will offer pushback, because that's the only way that you can kind of continue to grow at whatever your craft is. So whether it's you know, a colleague or a teacher or whoever somebody needs to call you out on your I don't know if I can curse on this podcast, but somebody needs to call you out on your bullshit. And we have come to an understanding that we come to each other to be called out and and that that is how things are.

Laura Baier: 18:16

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Ken Goshen: 19:17

So New Wave stands out? They're absolutely amazing and great to work with just really great guys. The founders of I've had the opportunity to talk to both of them on the phone and they're they're just amazing. I love working with Strathmore and I love working with fabric Estelle. And basically like all of these brands, what they have in common is they understand that the relationship between them and the artist is synergistic, right? It's both parties benefit. If I get the opportunity to share with my followers, the kind of product that I enjoy using. This is something that my audience is looking for, right if somebody's following me because they enjoy my art, they enjoy my process, they immediately wonder what kind of products is this person using. So the brands definitely benefit from me sharing, sharing their their products on my page. And I benefit when these brands share my content because these brands have credibility with their followers. These these, like if somebody's following fabric Estelle, and their massive page like 600,000 followers, they they do so because they trust the credibility of the brand. They love the pencils they love, they love the materials, like if they if they choose to honor me by sharing my work. This This makes my this makes my I don't want to even say brand, my reputation. It concretizes it?

Laura Baier: 20:46

What advice would you give to artists who want to collaborate with brands?

Ken Goshen: 20:50

To be honest, I'm not sure I'm great at it. But what I my two, my two cents on it is that you just kind of need to first you need to reach out there's you don't need, it doesn't hurt to reach out either by by Instagram DM, which is something that I like to do, or by email most of these brands, they have pages on Instagram with their email address in the in the contact feature. So it's easy to kind of get in touch with these people. And it's, it's important to be nice, it's important to explain how both parties are going to benefit from this agreement. Like if you have a company that you really appreciate, you can say, hey, you know, I'd love to share with my followers, how much I love working with with with the products that you make. And it could be really, really cool. If once I do, you could also post it on your page. And then your followers who are already fans of your product could see an example of how that product is being put to use. So if you sometimes some of these brands are a little old fashioned, and they don't totally understand what you're asking for on social media. So if you're young and savvy, you got to be in the mindset that the person on the other end of that email interaction might not be as young and might not be as savvy and might not even understand what you want them to do with this whole social media stuff. So you got to be patient and and explain that what you're trying to do is beneficial for both parties. And and I think if you do that patiently and kindly, you could get a lot out of it.

Laura Baier: 22:20

What is it that you like about a company like new wave,

Ken Goshen: 22:23

that for me, it's always front and center the product, right? Just the product, they make the best pallets right up until that point, I was only using pallets that I made myself and I still have those in my studio. And I still like my own craftsmanship. But I've never encountered like palettes that you can buy store bought that are that high quality. And that just you know, that's just a pleasure to work with. So it's easy to work with new wave, because I don't have to go out of my way to use their product so that it ends up on their page, I just walk into the studio. And it's already like 80% chance that I'm just going to reach out for a new wave palette. And if I'm already working with a new wave palette, what's it going to take me to just put a phone up and also film it, it's just so effortless. So the best kind of like the reason I love New Wave so much is because I just use them, I just enjoy their product so much that I just have fun

Laura Baier: 23:20

using it. What was it like meeting the owners of new wife,

Ken Goshen: 23:24

I didn't meet them in person, but I spoke with them on the phone. And they just I felt like I was it was easy to connect with these guys because it was obvious that they're passionate about what they do. Which is which is not always the case. You know, sometimes I would, would speak to some of these, some of these manufacturers and you understand that they they somehow ended up doing what they're doing, but it's not really like they're calling but when you're talking to the people that new wave you can see that for some reason these guys are passionate about making ballots and you've got to fall in love with people who are so devoted to their work coming from an emotional place. And this is something that as an artist I find really easy to relate to because the only reason to be an artist is if you really try to follow your passion otherwise it's like a crazy business decision.

Laura Baier: 24:13

You were made a Patreon ambassador, what was it like being contacted by them for that?

Ken Goshen: 24:18

It was really really nice. First of all, we got some hoodies which is which is fun. You always like to you know if you're trying to represent Patreon it's nice to be able to do it by simply wearing the merch so that's cool. But in all honesty, the the recognition part was not significant. For me what was most significant is that when I was reached out I was reached out by an somebody on the inside. So that gave us a channel to the to the inner workings of Patreon. And I discovered that the people who work there are, you know, they're very open to feedback. And so me being who I am I always have ideas As for improvement, and I discovered that on the other end of that line, there was somebody willing to listen. So you can trust that I sent them some charts, I sent them some numbers, I sent them some proposals. And it looks like they read everything. So hopefully, if they implement some of those ideas, then I can also it may be that I'll be in some small part responsible for even further improving the platform.

Laura Baier: 25:28

Some people might be surprised to know that Cosmo cash actually reaches out to Ken for business advice sometimes. So we wanted to know how well connected Ken is on the material side of the art world.

Ken Goshen: 25:41

So Cosmo obviously, works with a lot of companies. He's first and foremost, you know, here, you know him as the BoldBrush. guy, but he has, he has a lot of he has a lot of other interests and a lot of other clients that he represents and helps and helps, and helps them with their business ventures. And I found myself in the very fortunate position to, to kind of get a get a sneak peek at, like the behind the scenes of a lot of what goes on in the art, retail space, and the art, gallery space and all those things. And I'm just I'm just really grateful, because for some, the way that that kind of got cultivated is Cosmo would would offer his his his push back on my ideas with everything that has to do with with social media and stuff like that. And I reciprocated by offering my own pushback and my own opinions when it comes to the kinds of business relationships that he was cultivating. Because we became friends and I wanted the best for him. And I think he understood that. And so we've kind of grown to trust each other, because I just want the best for him. And he just wants the best for me. And I think that I don't really know how I came to I came to have relevant views about his his business because I never like studied it or anything like that. But I suspect that it might have something to do with the fact that I'm, I come from a different country. And so it's easier for me to kind of look at look at these things with slightly more of like a foreigners view as if for a little bit detached. So I'm detached, both because of the culture that I come from. And I'm also detached because I don't do retail, I don't do this kind of stuff. I am kind of like a studio animal. So Cosmo, I think found it useful to ask my feedback on these kinds of business moves, because he's going to get a fresh perspective. And if I can offer a fresh perspective, and if I can be of service, to business collaborator and of help to a friend, I will of course real estate opportunity.

Laura Baier: 27:56

So what was it like learning some of the ins and outs of the art world?

Ken Goshen: 27:59

It was a it was really interesting and strange when you pull back the curtain and you discover that at the end of the day, everybody's just a person. Because Because when you look at these big brands, the the initial thought that you have is like oh, you see a logo, you see storefronts, you see something that just feels very out of your reach. But when you pull the curtain back, sometimes it's for people, and it's for people who have names, and it's for people who who are you know, talking to Cosmo, so it's just really, it's just really interesting to to kind of see the kind of work that gets put into building a brand. But at the end of the day, it's all just people,

Laura Baier: 28:45

for you as an artist. And after getting that insight. Did you have any moments of disillusionment?

Ken Goshen: 28:51

It I wouldn't met, perhaps Perhaps it was a disillusionment moment. But it's more it was more like encouraging. Because what I was saying before about just reaching out to brands through social media dn sounds if you talk to me like three years ago, it would sound totally ridiculous to me that I would be talking to people on the inside of Strathmore because I was like, oh, Strathmore. You know, they, they make all the papers that I love, and they still do, they make the best papers, I love their papers. But now I also have email addresses if I want to talk to the people like of Strathmore. I know some names. And it's, it's actually more than disillusion. I would say it's liberating. It's liberating, because they understand that we all occupy the same sphere. And we have shared goals. We're not We're not opponents. And so I found that this is this is like a much healthier way to look at the discourse. And to see the people who make pencils are the people who make papers. These are my friends. These are my friends, even if they don't know they're my friends yet because I have nothing but love and respect for them. So it's great to get to know them and it's great to work together because As a everybody wins and B, it makes the job of being an artist just weightless lonely.

Laura Baier: 30:04

So what's next for Ken?

Ken Goshen: 30:06

What's next for kin is, I have a lot of ideas of things that I want to do with my with my Patreon supporters, my Patreon students. And a lot of it has to do with cultivating the community aspect. Because something that I this, this all stems from a really positive experience that I had in painting school. So let me just describe a little bit the kind of educational model that we had going there. So I was really fortunate to be part of a program that unfortunately, is no longer available. But it was magical, wherein for three years, we were basically painting and drawing from day, every day all day, but we would only see the teachers once a week. So teachers came in on Tuesday, and they gave us critique and they gave us feedback. But for the rest of the week, we kept working. And we became so tightly knit, and I am still in contact with most of my classmates. And it was just so you know, I know I keep using the word fruitful or productive. But in this case, this would be an understatement of how amazing that experience was. Because let me let me take a moment to explain this. When the teachers give feedback to your work, you are at the most disadvantageous position to understand what they're saying, because they're pointing out shortcomings in your practice. And because you have those shortcomings, you also have a blind spot, and it's very hard for you to see it. So a lot of the times it would be really common that our teachers would comment on our work. And we would be like, I don't understand what they meant. But since we understood that it's really useful to listen to the critique that all of us are getting, I would actually have my friends, my classmates tell me oh, what he meant to tell you was, and they kept on kind of repeating that to me over the course of several days. And also what I what I noticed is that sometimes more often than not comments that were being given to classmates of mine, were also relevant to my work, because we're all on the same path. So if my teacher walks around and tell somebody, listen, you're overusing A, B, or C, and you're underplaying A, B or C, then that kind of lights, an alert notification in my head, and I'm like, oh, maybe maybe I'm making that mistake as well. So there's, there's a really important part of learning art that has to do with community and has to do with this cross pollination, working with other artists who, to some extent, share your passion, share your vision, share your ambition. So what's next for my educational endeavor is to try to cultivate this community aspect even more. So I have a discord where all the students are posting my posting their works in progress and kind of on purpose. I try to you know, lay low on that discord, because when it's a live lesson, it's me monologuing for two hours, and they get that every week. And so it's a little bit of enough of my voice. But I know there's so much healthy learning that's happening with the interactions of the students with each other. And this is something that I feel is a extremely important and be I can, I can't really be a part of it. Because the whole idea is what's happening when the teacher is gone. And this is this is something that I feel like was so important for my growth. So I'm just trying to kind of recreate it in the digital environment for my students to benefit from and I'm already seeing and I'm already seeing signs that this is this is starting to bloom in really, really beautiful way like a few weeks back, I was pleasantly surprised more than pleasantly I was I was heartened to just stumble upon on Instagram live stream with two of my star students. They just went on an Instagram livestream and talked about painting talked about arts talked about what they're going through. And these are two students that didn't know each other. Before they they signed up for my lessons. And now it looks like they're, they're besties and their collaborators and they're, they're educating another, you know, upcoming generation about about arts and they're doing things that I can't do, like, for example, my temperament is not perfectly tailored to teach kids but I know both of them do, right and something I'm really passionate about because I believe that art should be learned from a younger age. So if I can somehow communicate this knowledge that will later get repackaged, and and continued to be disseminated through through the voices of other people. This is just for me, that's what keeps me happy. Right? That's, that's, that's that's the kind of stuff that makes me sleep easy at night knowing that it's not about me, it's never about me, the whole idea of art is a communication. Platform art is a discord when I when I paint a painting you know, it's It's what other people get out of it, when they see it, that's important when I, when I teach a technique, I don't try to make everybody else paint like me, I'm trying to put my perspective out there so that they can take it and incorporate it into their own practice and make something different from what I'm able to do my paintings, I'm already making them, but who knows what kind of work my students will be able to make due to, you know, in some small part due to my help, right. So that's the kind of stuff that I really want to find better ways to press like, so that when you when you sign up for the for the Patreon, you're not just signing up for the skills, you're you're signing up to be part of a network of people who are connected. And, and, and want to help each other want to support each other. Because I think the the lonely part, the loneliness, part of the of the craft, is something that we can overcome. And it's something that when when we do overcome, and we find people that we trust that we can send them a painting. And we know we'll get honest feedback. And we know that we appreciate that their opinion, this is something that you can't put a price on, you can't put a price on. So even though like for example, this brings us back to the subject of like Cosmo. So even though Cosmo is not an artist, I can still send him stuff that I'm working on in the social media sphere, and he's gonna give me honest feedback, he's going to listen, this is not going to work, this is terrible, or change this or change that. This is something that also this this is, while I have so many things to say, this is also something that in America is often considered rude, right to give, to give honest, direct feedback. But this, this shouldn't be rude if something isn't working or something is poorly done. You should feel blessed to have somebody who trusts you enough and knows that your friendship can withstand this kind of criticism. And if you get this kind of criticism from somebody in your network, you should send that person a Hanukkah gift, right? This is this is somebody who's very close to you. Because they are they are putting the they're putting your best interest above the social acceptability. And this is amazing, like, I'm so blessed to have a group of painters that I can send them my work in progress. And if it's bad, they're going to tell me it's bad. And they're going to tell me why because that's going to help my work be better. And I want my educational platform to also offer that to people to offer to people the opportunity to make friends with with other people on the same journey. They also want to say another thing that's in the future for kin, now that I think about it is I also kind of want to do a solo show and paint like I've been, I've been kind of sucked into this hole. Mostly working as as a teacher because because I'm passionate about it, a lot of a lot of artists have more of a jealous guarding of their studio time and their actual practice, because most artists just really love to paint and don't like to teach. So it's easier for them to keep this balance. But I love teaching so much that I find that sometimes I just spend weeks only working on stuff that has to do with with my teaching. And I feel like I could do a better job also allocating time to create the work that I'm passionate about creating because trust me people, I got some ideas. And I really, really want to get them on canvas.

Laura Baier: 38:10

If there was a platform where artists could get updated business and marketing tips, as well as Instagram hacks. What do you recommend?

Ken Goshen: 38:19

If there was some kind of platform where you could sign up and have access to the most recent information about what works and what doesn't work in the social media sphere? Would that be useful for artists? Absolutely, like, definitely, this is something that is actually really, really hard to understand. And I remember that when I just started out doing Instagram, I was doing crazy amounts of research, and a lot of it was nonsense. And so I really, it's exhausting, and I understand how exhausting it can be. So if there is such a resource where you can go and get the hottest news about like the algorithm and how it changes and make sure that in small digestible bites, you can get better at everything that has to do with the mysteries of Instagram that would every every artist should be on that.

Laura Baier: 39:11

And such a platform does exist. We recently began a subset called Sovereign artists. And it is all about marketing tips and business tips direct from artists as well as from our CEO who used to be gallery owner and Cosmo cash who is an extremely Instagram savvy person. All of these things are available to you as a subscriber for only $9 A month or $70. For a year, FASO users get a 15% off discount and they get access to all of these extra amazing newsletters packed with information that will change your career. So if you want to find out more or sign up, head on over to sovereign artist.substack.com or click the link in our show notes. And now back to the show. So Ken, when will you be starting classes at the Met again?

Ken Goshen: 39:58

This might be controversial too. Folks, but I hope so if they get their act together and stop this mask requirement, because I understand some people are very sensitive about that. But for me, because my job is communication, I don't feel like I can speak with a mask for like four hours very hard for me. And even harder than that sometimes, the facial cues of my students are really important for me to understand if they even picked up on what I said, sometimes I would say something and I can spot a smile, knowing that the student understood or spot an expression of confusion, which makes me feel like I need to explain this in a different way. And so working with students with masks on, I just feel like makes me an inferior teacher. And so I would love to see students as face again, literally, and to work in person when that becomes possibility. And hey, I'm also totally not opposed to work in other schools. As much as I love the Met, if you guys are running an art school, let me know. You can always reach out to me at info at Ken goshen.com. I already have some some, I don't want to say if it's not confirmed yet, but I'm going to be teaching in Mexico in November, probably. And I might be teaching in France next year. That's not confirmed yet. And I have lined up some possibilities for Tel Aviv. But all those places are really far from New York. So if any of you are in New York CCS, do you hear me Chelsea classical studios, let's make a workshop happen. I am so psyched to see students his face again. So I'm excited to get back into that.

Laura Baier: 41:39

What message would you give your younger self during moments of feeling discouraged about your future career?

Ken Goshen: 41:46

So I actually it's, I think, what I what the younger mean needed to hear was, was not so much in terms of like, I didn't need to hear messages in moments of despair, I almost needed to hear stuff in in moments of hope. Because for better and for worse, I went through my career just kind of believing in myself and hoping things were going to work out. And on some level, that's really important. And without it, it's hard to get by but on the other on the other side, sometimes it makes you blind to obstacles that are going to hit you in the face. And it's better to be aware of them kind of ahead of time. So I feel like I had this very misguided notion that if I being a nerd, if I do enough, studying, things will just work out like if I, if I study here for three years, and then I studied there for four years, and then you know, galleries are just going to be knocking at my door and things are going to just work out from that point. But then, immediately after I finished my bachelor's, I had a lot of my classmates who just just straight up from there signed up for their masters. And a lot of them are still in school and in the school environment. And it just kind of made me pretty sour on the whole idea that the art the art. The art sphere, is trying to present itself as if it's like law school, right? You go to law school, you get a law degree, you go work in a law company, and then you're done. You're set for life. And they tried to sell this kind of vision to artists, you go to an expensive art school, you get your art degree, then you do your masters, and then you know you're a working artist. This is not how this works. And so I got out, as soon as I understood, okay, even if I do my Masters, like my future is not guaranteed there's no set track. So if you're looking for a set track, I think this career is not for you. But if you're determined to work as an artist, you have to think of yourself like an athlete, right? There's no where where you can do a degree in swimming, and then you'll be like a swimmer, it's a lot more. It has a lot more to do with it. forging an individual path, and cultivating your own mindset of like discipline and setting your own goals and making sure that you meet your own deadlines. It's just a kind of career that requires you to take much more ownership of it, and to understand your own competitive edge and to understand what kind of value you can offer to people. And don't be self centered. A lot of artists fall short because, you know, it's a kind of narcissistic career. So it's always like me, me, me, me, me, but me, me, me don't pay the bills, what pays the bills is how you can figure out how the meat can help all of us how the me can be translated into some kind of activity that other people value enough to ask you to come back. And you need to start thinking about that early. I did not think about this early enough because what I thought is, heck, I'm a nerd. I can get A's in every class. And if I just study hard and get A's and everything's things will work out. Well that works for lawyers and it works for accountants. For artists, it's just not enough. So if you're an artist and you're devoted to staying on this path, start thinking about how to take, how to take ownership of your career, how to direct your own path. And what is it that you plan to offer people beyond the fact that your paintings are going to be pretty that's it needs to be more than that.

Laura Baier: 45:26

Thank you for coming on to the podcast Ken.

Ken Goshen: 45:28

Thank you for the invitation. And if you guys want more of me, please feel free to visit Ken goshen.com If you want my lessons that scan goshen.com/lessons If you want to support me on patreon that's patreon.com/ken Goshen and my podcast can be found wherever good podcasts are found. Just look for art school with Ken Goshen, that's a R T S C O L with Ken Goshen ke NGOSHEN N N last update for you guys as I know you're curious. The birds still on my head. The bird is asleep on my head, I swear. So that was that that may have been the most fun part of this interview because I've done many interviews but none with birds. And to those of you concerned, the bird is indeed wearing a diaper. So I remain unscathed. Thank you for the invitation. I really appreciate it. Check the

Laura Baier: 46:21

show notes to get all of Ken's links