32. Consistency Beats Out Talent with Jason Polins

Jason Polins: 0:00

From my perspective, there is no such thing as talent. The only thing talent is from from my perspective, is the impulse to engage in a particular thing. And we definitely all have these impulses to do certain things. Not everything but certain things. And if you stick to something and you find it interesting, the will to improve is just about putting in time and effort. It has nothing to do with God given talent, which doesn't exist.

Laura Arango Baier: 0:29

Welcome to the BoldBrush show, where we believe that fortune favors the bold brush. My name is Laura Arango Baier, and I'm your host. For those of you who are new to the podcast, we are a podcast that covers art marketing techniques, and all kinds of business tips specifically to help artists learn to better sell their work. We interview artists at all stages of their career, as well as others who are in careers tied to the art world in order to hear their advice and insights. For today's episode BoldBrush interviewed Jason Polins, a realist painter with a great sense of humor, who lives and works in the Boston area. We sat down to talk about his inspiration, his wild experiences with galleries, his Atelier, and advice for any artist who wants to start taking on commissions. And we discuss his insane social media growth, how consistency will always beat out talent, and his upcoming plein air landscape workshop. All right, yeah. Hello, Jason, and welcome to the BoldBrush podcast. How are you today?

Jason Polins: 1:30

I'm doing great, thanks. Just sort of getting getting in gear to answer some questions, I guess.

Laura Arango Baier: 1:37

Yeah. And it's a joy having you on the podcast too. Because I know you... based on what I've seen on your work and your bio, and how you present yourself... you have a very tongue in cheek, kind of jokey sort of vibe, which I love. Because you can't take life seriously all the time. Right? Yeah, absolutely. So it's fun.

Jason Polins: 1:58

Absolutely. It's, there's, there's too much sort of shit that's always going down and wants to be wants to be stuck with, with that being your focal point all the time. And I I try not to talk politics in my work. I'm happy to talk politics a little bit. But I try not to pay attention to the news and make that the centerpiece of my existence. I'd much rather go for walks in nature and things like that. And just, I'd rather even just be out of the studio and trying to experience life. So yeah. And then there's a lot there's a lot to be said for for humor and for finding that kind of expression. And not trying to make it all jokes either. But you know, yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:43

Yeah, yeah, there's a

Unknown: 2:44

balance. Yeah, definitely.

Laura Arango Baier: 2:46

So before we begin, do you mind giving our listeners a little quick bio summary of who you are and what you do?

Jason Polins: 2:55

Sure. I studied undergraduate at Boston University here in Boston, Mass where I still live currently. I found the Florence Academy of Art after graduating, and that's in Florence, Italy, and went there for what was it? Three and a half years, I think, graduated, contemplated sticking around in Italy decided gotta go, came back to the Boston area. I had already known a man by the name of Gary Hoffman, who is who comes from the Boston's of painters. And that's sort of, you know, a lineage of sort of high color and fantastic drawing, sort of brought together by Frank Benson and Edmund Tarbell, and people of that ilk. And so Gary studied with Ives Gammell. And that was pretty amazing. So he was a great contact. And then I connected with Nelson Shanks and he was really influential, and I think it's someone to definitely chat about a little bit. And now I'm teaching in my studio, which is technically located in Somerville, Massachusetts. I do my own painting and drawing out of that studio as well as getting outside do landscape. I speak about narrative and metaphor I like you already mentioned I do love to do something a little tongue in cheek in my work, even if it's just like awkward in terms of that that weird modern shape with that interesting classical shape of something I don't know. But yeah, that's I don't know if that's a little summary I I've been teaching for good to say this part, I guess. How long have we been teaching for probably about 20 years now? Maybe a little longer. I was teaching right when I got back from Italy, which was way back in 2001 or two And I just sort of found a great studio just hung my shingle on the door, so to speak, and just tried to figure out how to make it work. So, and yeah, I teach weekly classes, we cover all sorts of stuff. It's yeah, it's if you can walk through the door, and you can pay for classes, you're welcome in. And that's it, I don't really care what someone knows, or thinks they know, or doesn't know, I don't care how old someone is, I don't care about anything, except that they're into wanting to be there and do their thing and improve. So that's what it's about.

Laura Arango Baier: 5:34

It's a great policy to have I mean, how many people I'm actually since I told you before, but I went to Angel Academy. And one of the things that I was amazed of being there was, we had people of every age and every, like walk of life, zero experience to a lot of experience. And I think having that as a part of your teaching program is extremely important. Because you you immediately open the gates to a lot more people who would think, Oh, this is out of my reach, or I can't do that, or why would I think of doing right? Yeah. And then they find that?

Jason Polins: 6:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's, I keep telling people, people, there's that whole belief, oh, I wasn't born with an artistic talent. It's like, no one is, there's no, from my perspective, there's no such thing as talent. The only thing talent is from from my perspective, is the impulse to engage in a particular thing. And we definitely all have these impulses to do certain things. Not everything, but certain things. And if you stick to something and you find it interesting, the will to improve is just about putting in time and effort. It has nothing to do with God given talent, which doesn't exist. It has all to do with you. The individual art is just like everything else. It's man made idea of expression. It's that's it. That's it. So just

Laura Arango Baier: 6:56

Discipline will always beat out talent.

Jason Polins: 6:58

Right. I have, I have way more consistency in doing what I'm doing that I have talent. And that's the only reason why I do this. That's it. It's just it's very fulfilling also, as for me as an individual, most people do not see my work. By the way. It's my work sits in the hallway, it sits in my studio, it's here at home around me a little bit. I give it away. I try to try like hell to sell it. I try like hell to deal with galleries, galleries suck. And that's another like thing to talk about if you want, but it's Instagram is great. But it's not the end all be all. It's much better than most other social media for lead visual artists or creative people. Yeah, anyway. So there you go.

Laura Arango Baier: 7:46

Well, I actually and I'm curious, why are galleries evil? Are they bad?

Jason Polins: 7:52

Galleries, galleries are really terrible consignment shops. And what they do is they literally steal and forever in a day, they've done the same thing. Because why why change the format. They basically take your work for free in order for them to profit. And you don't necessarily want to sell your work, they want to sell whoever it's easy to sell. But they'll use your work or my work to sell Joey's work over there. Because Joey's work is more popular than your work or my work. If your work gets them in, get someone in the door they will gladly use that to angle towards someone else to make more make it more profitable. Because at the end of the day, they're there to make money. They don't care which work they sell. And there's many other reasons I mean 50% of commission Come on No, I'm sorry. You don't buy the work and then you make I mean, I have to take a 50% hit because you want to you want to make your money for yourself. I'll tell you what gallery all galleries by my work by every artists work out of your pocket sell it for profit, like any other normal business would. That's That's what every gallery should be doing. And oh, but they can't afford it. Well, then get the fuck out of the business don't don't act so such like a prima donna. And so important. And I know I'm being really like cutthroat with what I'm saying. But I don't know I've been I've been in probably like 40 galleries over the years or 30 Odd galleries over the years. And I've seen all kinds of shit go down with galleries like that. galleries have closed and disappeared by work gallery. I'm in I'm in a I'm in a lawsuit right now to try and reclaim 13 pieces. It's taken me over three years to try to figure it out. I am very lucky that I have a pro bono lawyer. I would love to do a podcast about that when it's time we could do that. But it's it's a massive undertaking. And it's not even necessarily about money. It's more about the just how slimy galleries can be. It's.

Laura Arango Baier: 9:54

Yeah, yeah. I have also heard cases of galleries selling behind the artists back and then I'm keeping all the money and then like leaving the country. I'm like, oh my god...

Jason Polins: 10:04

For a couple$1,000.

Laura Arango Baier: 10:05

Yeah. And then also like, artwork isn't just the money like we, we don't do this for the money. And I've said this in a few episodes, too. We don't do this for the money. We do this because we absolutely love it. And we deserve to make money with it. Sure. Right. So for us, it's like, Dude, where's this painting that I worked on for months, or I gave so much dedication and love and effort into like, Where the hell is it? You know, who has it? That's terrifying.

Jason Polins: 10:31

I've had instances where a gallery rented out my work to another gallery to make money off of my work didn't tell me and then I found out. I've, yeah, I could come up with dozens of crazy stories for you that actually occurred. It's just It's absolutely ridiculous what galleries can do. And it's not the gallery, it's the people. It's the person that owns the gallery or the employee of the gallery. And not even just any employee, it's going to be the manager. So that's the owner is often like you know, Katmandu finding themselves, and they have some trusted individuals running the gallery.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:11

I've heard that too. We're like gallerist isn't is probably just an investor who like, oh, it'd be cool to have a gallery. And I've heard this actually from a close friend who visited a gallery who was interested in like having him for a talk. And then he showed up expecting to see the gallerist there. And he was just met with the manager. And I think a few months after the gallery closed, because like they weren't selling they were, there was nothing going on in there. And lack of professionalism.

Jason Polins: 11:40

Yeah. So totally. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:44

Well, I would love to talk about that that case that you're going in next time.

Jason Polins: 11:49

Sure. Yeah. Well, we'll make a plan. I mean, it's still ongoing. So it's, it's, I could talk about any of it. But it's like, it's kind of boring, because you can't quite get to the end yet.

Laura Arango Baier: 11:59

We need a conclusion.

Unknown: 12:00

It's interesting, though. It's very, yes. Yes. I mean, I really would love to write like a type of a book for artists that talk about this singular experience. And then like, what are the lessons learned kind of a thing or there? It would work? Right, in a podcast. But yeah, we'll get back.

Laura Arango Baier: 12:15

Yeah, I think it's worth it because it's like, and Clint, the CEO of BoldBrush, he actually has said it because he used to be a gallerist. So they're like gatekeepers, basically. So now that they're basically not the gatekeepers anymore, because there are hundreds of ways to make money and profit from artwork these days. It's worth having information for people who don't know how galleries work for people who have never worked with a gallery or maybe want to work with a gallery to have these caveats and like a guide of like, Hey, this is what I went through. This is how you can prevent it. So I think it's worth doing that. So I support you.

Jason Polins: 12:55

Yes, yeah. And it's changing a lot to what to pay attention to, I think, but yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 13:01

But back to back to painting. So even though the gallery is also an important part of this conversation, but let's hear a little bit more about Yeah. What or who has been your greatest inspiration for the work you do?

Jason Polins: 13:19

A few different people. I mean, Nelson Shanks has definitely been incredibly significant in my life. And I think my mind is not playing tricks on me. I think it was five years ago, that he passed away. And he still is teaching the lessons kind of fun daily, when when he pops into my brain. And I think back to some opportunity that I had, I never I should also clarify was never a student of studio incamminati I actually more or less studied one on one with him. And I would go down to Philly to go see him and stay with him and, and like I play around in the school a little bit, but I was basically at his house or what have you. He came up here a couple of times. There were a few opportunities where I was participating watching him paint, like a portrait commission that some sort of, especially here in Boston, a portrait of a recently deceased scientist named E. O. Wilson. And that was amazing to be a part of. And I mean, you know, influences on painting come from all different places, right? So certainly, you know, past painters, Dennis Miller Bunker, Velazquez, Vermeer, or God. I can't think of names right now. But you know, it's it's there's so many people that sort of come up in my work to some degree, you know, William Merritt Chase, you know, Yeah, it's just you know, and Antonio Mancini, it's just like things, things that just like percolate in my mind or when I'm painting and I'm like oh this is so reminiscent to how I felt while looking at that Velazquez painting of Christ on a cross like years and years ago I was I was, you know, in Madrid I went to the Prado stood in front of each of these paintings for so long, you know, and it's just, it's sometimes it's just more that that communion that that I took with a painters sort of provato career that they're long dead, but, you know, their their work is now highly documented and heavily documented. But, you know, I think that's what's great about all these sources is that it's not about necessarily being in front of someone and talking to them. It's your experience, however, you got that with that influence. So that's that that weighs heavily on me, to keep me raising my bar to reach for something that's last year than I am. And it's no pretense, it's just you know, where it comes from.

Laura Arango Baier: 16:17

Yeah. And it's, that's actually part of the tradition of oil painting to where even the people that we admire Vermeer, Da Vinci, all of these painters, they themselves were also comparing themselves to their great masters and saying, holy crap, how can I do that? So it's, it's a never ending chain of growth, which I think is beautiful in its tradition.

Jason Polins: 16:40

You know, my greatest teacher is, quite frankly, just the world around me nature, just observing humankind, my interactions in life, as it unfolds my relationships, whether they be more personal and you know, sexual in nature, or whether it be more platonic in nature, familial, distance, close, you name it, I mean, all of these feelings that I have, and that I experience and how I traverse them, those are probably the most influential sort of artistic sources that I have, or, you know, creative sources I have. So I love to, like, you know, as an example, I love to be in my studio working for as many hours as I can, especially this time of year where the light is short. And I just want to, you know, I can't be outside as easily because of how cold it is, or what have you. But I also in a heartbeat will just drop everything and put my boots back on and walk outside and just walk around. And, you know, I'm not I'm not terribly social, but I will like, if I see people that I know a little bit, I'll say something, you know, but so it's like those, those those, those elements are also important, you know, I don't mind my painting. Also, maybe this is a good time to say this, all these influences. I'm not trying to emulate a single person, I have zero interest in painting like anyone. I think that that's like the worst place to work from. There is no point. Like my painting style does not look like Nelson's painting style. I don't think it does. I believe it doesn't. I don't even want my paintings looks like another one of my paintings often. And I've been told that and, and that seems to be a problem for people. I don't care. But I think that it's I'm trying to figure out where where I can be the genuine me to express the genuine me I'm doing it for myself. I'm not doing it to be applauded. I'm not doing it for a price tag. I would love to sell it each and every one of my works, but it just doesn't happen.

Laura Arango Baier: 18:57

Yeah, I had seen in another interview that you did, that you mentioned that Nelson Shanks' philosophy kind of rattled you like it made you really change after especially after, you know, having been at the Florence Academy, which is a very strict very much you know, you only you can only paint in this way, basically type of way whereas Nelson you know, he's he's learned a completely different way. How did his philosophy of painting change your perspective?

Jason Polins: 19:27

Honestly, it actually it was a reawakening before I went to the Florence Academy, where I was a much more organic draftsperson painter. I had learned, you know, through techniques, classes and through art history, indirect painting and things like that. Oh, we got to trace the drawing on the canvas. I fucking to test that. I cannot stand the idea of making a drawing and transforming it. And now we're playing Color by numbers, Fuck my life, I cannot imagine anything more boring than sitting there and filling something in. So I was always just a very organic like draw on the canvas, wipe it down, shift things left, right center, remove them, add, subtract, you name it. And seeing Nelson do that that was a huge like reminder of, of sort of what felt very natural to me. And that's his philosophy and more is to to work organically. Look at the surface you're working on, it doesn't matter how big or small it is. Sight size is useless, it's comparative, it's working in a manner that you see and choose how you want to represent something, you know, I could, I could use you taking a sip from your cup right now. And, and puts you in the corner, but really small in the background. Or maybe my hand is up and I'm putting you in my hand drinking, you know who it this is where, where it really comes alive. And the you know, that's part of the magic of that kind of creativity is that when you take ownership of that, it really the process is irrelevant. The process becomes mundane. And if the process isn't mundane, then you haven't figured out a lot of yourself yet. Because you're only in that technical like place you can only do that you can't think of where else you could be and and so the act of painting, the act of drawing is as mundane as there is a taking a shit, right? It's it's like, oh, I took a shit. Wow, I gotta move on with my day. But it's not like I took a shit. Look at it. People gather up. It's like who? Who really cares? No one cares, understanding technique and things like that is really important. Because you can't make it mundane, if you're just trying to understand, but it is mundane. Because that isn't what makes a finished painting become complete. You do and, and and it just doesn't happen unless you let go of focusing on technique. It just, you know, it's that's what Nelson was about. It was like, you know, it's like the sub current of the sub current. And just like allowing yourself to observe that but not trying to control it or things of that nature.

Laura Arango Baier: 22:39

Especially when you know, going to an academic school, it's so easy to fall into technique as a habit. And just like, if that makes sense, because it is it's a good habit to like keep your technique but at the same time, it can be so limiting. Like I said, like, you don't want to just be doing the same thing over and over. It's like, okay, what do you what are you going to do with this? How can you manipulate reality in a way where you can tell a story or in a way where you can make it interesting or show a different perspective from life instead of just here's, here's this really well rendered well made portrait, which is fine, but

Jason Polins: 23:18

Right, the portrait is the portrait portrait is a great example, go look on Instagram a little later today, or not much later, because late there. But well, it's not that late. But look on Instagram, look up five different portrait painters. And it's so much easier to see people painting a portrait or drawing a portrait where the technique is first and you see it because I don't want to name names, I don't want to pick anyone out. So please don't ask me to but you're going to see it because you're going to start seeing that someone that's done like 1000 portraits, if they fallen into the convention of their technique is the same process every single time. It makes things look very consistent. It makes things look very, very produced. But it does not give something that spark of life that could bring it beyond technique, and turn it into something more poetic. The poetry is about the individual. That's something that you have to discover within yourself. It's in everyone. It's just in everyone differently. And the technique is only about how you go about something. I teach people technique all the time, but I never tell them that this is how to do it. And I might teach you the next time the next thing that I teach you, it'll be something different, like how to do it will be something different because there is not just one way to do this. Whatever I'm teaching people I do not think it's the way I think it's the more open way. I think it's more about problem solving skills, which isn't about technique. It's about how you approach something and how, how, how many, how many ways can you turn that problem around? Like that's way more useful technique, literal technique, like how to use something That is only what it is how to use it. So however many times you can think of how to use a pencil, if you hold it this way, you hold it this way you hold it that way. You leave it blondes, you sharpen it this fucking sharp and long as possible. It doesn't matter. Those are just all technique. It's how it and then it's like, is this working for me? Yes, no, maybe. But it's still mundane. It's not a, it's how you think that matters I think.

Laura Arango Baier: 25:26

Yes. And that's actually really great that you said that because you know, what you get from these Atilla pas isn't just technique. And it's, it's surprising, really, you get philosophy, you get a mentality from them. Which is why, you know, going to just one can really, it's fine. I mean, I'm not bashing on anyone who just goes to one of course. But it can really, yeah, exactly close your mind to the fact that, hey, the way that they do it here is different than the way they do it at this other Atelier, where they only do comparative measurement, and they never do sight size or, you know, just that in itself, it's good to have a broad range of ways of doing the same thing. Because like you said, every individual has their own way of doing things. And it's really nice when it breaks the mold, but it's individual to you, and you get the results that you want. And fuck the other guys, you know. So they do it their way, I do it mine. Yeah.

Jason Polins: 26:25

Yeah. I mean, if you're painting a landscape, you don't have to start with the sky. First, you can start any painting, any drawing, anywhere you want, there is no wrong way to start starting is started. If you if you try and make... Yeah, if you try make too much detail too clear gonna fuck yourself. And it's gonna like be like an evolutionary dead end as I like to describe it. But if you can start really broad and really simple, that's going to give you much more, you know, room to grow with that thing that you're trying to do. Yeah. And I mean, I will teach people I will teach people sight size, and I will focus more on sort of comparative measurement. But the sight size part is short lived from my perspective. But it's still useful, because those are really the two camps. There's, it's not like a third option. It's just those two things. So if you if you aren't talking about both of them, why not?

Laura Arango Baier: 27:23

Yeah, and they're both tools, which that's only to really like, see them as we just gather all of these techniques as tools, not as the be all end all. They are a means to an end, they are not the end. Right? The journey continues. Yeah. Right. So this brings me to this question, which is, what do you wish you had known before you began studying to become an artist?

Jason Polins: 27:47

Yeah, I thought about this question a lot. Over the years, you know, I am late to the game and understanding the business of being an artist. I'm still trying to figure it out. And sure, every couple of years, something goes on. And it's hard to do the same things, solve things in the same way, monetarily. Staying up to speed with different apps is just like a nightmare these days, because there's new things coming out all the time. But that is what I would have wanted to been aware of much earlier. Also, when I was like it at Boston University, there was still pre internet, you know, it's like, there was just everything was just analog. And it made it very difficult to know how to learn more, and I would ask my professors at Boston University. So how do you like make money as a painter and they say, you'll figure it out? That's, you know, looking, yeah, looking back, that's just like the satis like, it just shows the level that those people were invested in other people's education. So, you know, I nowadays for me, I'm more invested, I'm more involved in my own success, which is it fluctuates. Sometimes I'm successful, sometimes I'm unsuccessful, and we're talking about monetary. I feel like I'm always successful, you know, in terms of the opportunity that I take to create, or to learn about myself or to it. It's not always about finishing. It's about constant practice, which I'll talk about in a moment too. But the idea of of a business that is that is still lacking in most Atal yeas, universities, colleges, you name it, it's just it is not something it is a disservice to students all over the planet who are driven to make creativity because I don't even want to put a label on it whether it's music, writing, theater, art, you know, like fine art. visual art, whatever, whatever you can come up with as a as a, as a creative, you know, field. I think that that this kind of creativity gets sort of shafted in terms of the business acumen. So that's, that's, that's the biggest, biggest thing that I could ever, ever answer that question with.

Laura Arango Baier: 30:22

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Jason Polins: 32:19

Right? When when you're when in this in. Right? When when Yeah, I have yet to be able to be like, Oh, Mondays are my day to stay in my office space and do all my emails. No, I answer emails as quickly as I can I missed your email. It's like, it's when I'm in my studio, I just have my my phone, I don't have a computer, like it is a computer. But the last thing on my mind is to sit down and scroll through my phone and look at emails and start answering on this fucking phone. Like, forget it. Like I just I just, you know, I might glance at the fact that there are emails there. But you know, but also, like the idea of making money isn't like a Monday job. It's a 24/7 job when it comes down to it. And it's not that I'm always on the clock, but but I never do put down my creativity. So it's like, I haven't taken a I barely take vacations but like when I every vacation I've taken which which was one the first time I took a vacation like eight years was this past summer. And I went to Mexico and I brought my stuff with me it was a it was a I take yoga at a local yoga studio. And they had a yoga retreat. And I was like Screw this I'm going to fucking Mexico never been there. It's bucket list place I loved being there. Did you did yoga, but I also just like was like Sia, like, I just like disappeared on everyone and just got my sketchbook and started drawing and painting squash and stuff. And like just messing around. My purpose was to not like I needed 10 finished pieces while I'm here. No, it was just the like, be creative in a totally different place. What does that do for me? So

Laura Arango Baier: 34:01

yeah, yeah, it goes back to what you said about you know, being more organic. Yeah, way that you do things?

Jason Polins: 34:07

Yeah. And it's like, and to just bring it bring it back to the business thing. As an idea. It's just there is no, for me, there's just no set pattern that I that that function. So the idea of conforming to Business modules or modes or something. It quickly deteriorates. Like I'll get into it. I'll do it a little bit. And then it's like, well, it doesn't really jive. It doesn't. It's like I am not I'm not uniformly creative. Every time I tried to sit down and like work on a painting or anything. So yeah...

Laura Arango Baier: 34:44

Yeah, cause I feel like you know, a lot of those business things are very much like treating us as if we were these like robot laborers, which we're not right. We're very bohemian. We're very artistic. We're very much like I feel like doing this right. I feel like doing that right now which can be chaotic, but if you can adapt those highs and lows, yeah, then you're fine.

Jason Polins: 35:05

Completely, yeah, it's absolutely accurate. I mean, yeah, and we and we do things like it's a one off this painting of this waterfall. It's a one off, I'm gonna paint this a bunch of times, but each one is a one off. And so it's like pricing that is unique. And when someone buys it, it's unique. If I make prints, which I actually, it's still something I don't do, I don't know, it's, it's all just, it's like stabbing in the dark no matter what, in a way. So.

Laura Arango Baier: 35:31

And sometimes we're just drawn to one thing when it comes to painting too. And selling those paintings. Maybe it isn't the painting itself, but you know, like teaching others like how you're doing that's one way of profiting from the knowledge that you've accumulated. So that brings me to what inspired you to begin pollens atelier?

Jason Polins: 35:49

Sure that was another sort of it was like, there was a post Florence Academy decision that I knew I wanted to teach and that that was important, but it wasn't it was because I It wasn't because I felt like I had something necessarily that people wanted from me and what I was able to do artistically because I still felt very much like, like I was a student but I I recognize that from my experiences that I knew something that most other people around me just never never had a chance to experience. And so I thought that that was a good stepping off point with Nelson in the picture. I really identified with him that this this overwhelming responsibility to, to teach is about trying to instill someone is instill in someone the opportunity to raise themselves up more and and so you know, I played around with the name of my studio for a while at first it was it was Boston School of paint of painting. And because that was like an homage you know, paying homage to the Boston School painters and and they still are pretty prominent in my mind about about a lineage of painters. And then it became pollens, I tell ya, because I was like, why would I want to act like I'm them when I can be me. And so it was like there was only like a year or two into using the Boston School painting to that I shifted over. Then pollens hotel yay is just one room. It's just one studio. It's just me. It's just a bunch of people that show up for part time classes because the majority people can't afford or are not available to be full time people. And I make it work. And I've weathered so many storms and like panic, a pandemic and, you know, stock market crashes, housing crashes, things like that. And I'm still open. I'm still open. And I've watched people close around me, I'm like, I don't know how I'm doing this. I'm just doing it. You know, and yeah, that's the that's the biggest, most important thing. But But teaching teaching is is so important. You know, it's being able to have people come in. And yes, it's important that they pay me money. And of course it is. But that they trust. They they trust me, they see that it's helpful. They come back for more, that's really important. I'm not an agreement granting program. I don't give certificates. If you if you decide you're done, you're done. If you ask my opinion, I'll give it to you. But it's it's up to the individual to choose to stay or go. I don't have a fixed curriculum. I did make a curriculum, but it's just a guideline as to like what makes sense that goes for a second third. And no one adheres to that. Because why should they I really, like I really work with the student. I'm like, what was your experience? Like with that bar drawing? Do you feel like you could use another one? Would you like to try something else? There's no reason why someone can't paint the first day they're in my studio, but I do warn them that it's going to be really complicated and frustrating like how because it is I think of things in terms of moving parts drawing has the fewest moving parts painting has the most moving part, even only using a couple of colors. So you know, the more moving parts the more complex the machinery is. So that's kind of what it is. But yeah, that this is all why I started teaching and why I have Polins, Atelier now. And that's also why my Instagram is Polins Atelier. It's not Jason Polins, it's Polins Atelier. And it just seems to make more sense from my perspective.

Laura Arango Baier: 39:49

Which, you know, leads me to the next question, which is what helped you the most when he began to profit from your work as an artist, which it seems like teaching has been the biggest.

Jason Polins: 39:59

Yes, yeah, yeah, it is. Teaching has been the most profitable side of my fine arts career. And I'm not sure what else to say to be honest. I don't know, maybe part of that's because in in some ways I kind of backed off of promoting my work a lot. And I would enter a lot of contests. And the only thing I learned is that contests are the quickest way to waste your money in the least useful manner. Like contests just are a dead end path to to like making you feel like shit because they're very, they're just they're only geared for whatever Institute or group of people or gallery or something to just gather some money. That's really it. The show means nothing. It doesn't matter if it's ARC or if it's, I don't even know anything anymore about what what's really out there. I mean, I know it's out there, but I just, I would love to apply to ARC and get my work in there. But is it really worth? I think the last time I applied it was like I put four pieces in I spent like, I don't know, like $120 or something. And I was like, food for like three weeks.

Laura Arango Baier: 41:18

Yeah, I would also stay away from competitions. Unless it's like you have because what people don't understand what competition sometimes is look at past winners, and you will see what the judges normally like. And for some competitions, right? Maybe it's not realism, maybe it's hyper realism, and the more pours you know, the painting has the higher chances you will win. And that's fine. If you're hyper realist, but if you're in a specific area of painting, look at the winners and then decide whether or not it's worth like applying for you. Because they might not be Yeah, yeah.

Jason Polins: 41:53

Exactly. That's exactly it.

Laura Arango Baier: 41:55

So question. Sure. Have you made peace with social media?

Jason Polins: 42:00

Have I made peace with social media? Yes. Yes, I didn't really I didn't really put much opportunity into like learning from others about social media. I mean, I did a little bit, but it just, it wasn't really helping much. So you know, throughout the majority of like the lockdown and stuff, I was really just sort of lost in a in a very deep dark hole, like most of us. And and then like recently, actually, recently, I figured out for myself some Instagram stuff. And then I also became very lucky with some of my Instagram stuff. So in a matter of like three weeks, I went from 9000 to over 100,000 followers.

Laura Arango Baier: 42:45

Yeah, I saw, you have an insane amount of followers.

Unknown: 42:47

Yeah, it was all organic. And it's not something that I have figured out how to repeat yet. But what I what one of the things that I did for for social media, which is only answer, I do want to I do have one a Tik-Tok account, but I really ignore it. And I do want to sort of play with that. But I just don't really want to play with social media that much. I think it's all very interesting. But the, for me, the idea of social media is it's it's gaming, the algorithms, that's it, it has zero to do with the people on it, the people aren't are going to be finicky. And they're, they're going to like something, they're not going to follow you. You can't guarantee who follows you, you can't guarantee who likes something, but what you can do is you can game the algorithm, and it changes all the time. So it's not a one time fix. It's like, like, now it's been, I think it's been like a month and a half since I since my account exploded. So whatever I did a month and a half ago doesn't exist as an opportunity anymore. It's gone. It existed then, but no longer. One of the best things I did was I was like, if it's too much work as an artist to to keep creating work and creating posts or reels or anything. It just takes me way too fucking long to do to be creative. And, and I'm tired of like, here's a start. And I'm like, why am I showing that shit. So it's interesting to, you know, a little bit. But um, but what I started doing was what I call color mashups. And it's me, focusing my my phone on a palette that I have, which I will do a plug for them. It's a new wave palette. I really liked them. I actually make my own painter's palette like a handheld. And it's beautiful. But there's this great because it doesn't take as much time to buy one as it does to make one. But it's true. Yeah. And I just do these color mixing. And I noticed that everybody's always like, here's what I do for flesh tone. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? Like Like, I don't know what I'm doing for flesh tone until I'm looking at you and figuring out what color you look like and how Am I gonna get to that? And, you know, it's like, I'm just I like color is for for mixing, but it's there is no, this is my formula for this, or this is my formula for that I have zero formula. The formula is figure it the fuck out. Yeah. And, and, yeah, so so I'm just like talking about sort of hate and mixing color. And that's been wildly popular. And that's way more popular way more popular than, than my work is on my account, which is fine. I mean, both get exposure as a result. So you know, so that's my little, that's my thing that made me come to peace with social media. And I was stunned, I don't really care that I have a big account. It's not it wasn't like, I gotta get a bank account. It was just, it was just something that clicked when it clicked. And, and I think I'd had my account for maybe five years or four years before them something like that. I don't remember. And I for a long time, I just did nothing. I was like, Okay, now I have an Instagram account. Great bye. Like I didn't really care. But I mean, I will. The other thing I'd say about about social medias, I'm happy to monetize through social media is I haven't figured that out very well yet. But it is absolutely worthwhile from my perspective to do that. So yes, yes to monetization.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:29

Yes. And the reach you get through social media is not something you can get from your couch, or from going to your local fair, you know, sure you can meet people at your local art fair, but social media.

Jason Polins: 46:42

Right. And it's also not something you can get through any gallery.

Laura Arango Baier: 46:45

Exactly. Yeah. And the gallery won't give you like the list of your collectors either. So I mean,

Jason Polins: 46:51

no, they are they are horrible, horrible. Like that. That and they'll ask for your list. Oh, give us your list so that we can mail it out for you. But you do. Yeah, that's my list.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:05

That's a very short list.

Jason Polins: 47:08

Buy my list.

Laura Arango Baier: 47:09

Oh, man.

Unknown: 47:11

Yeah, yeah, I have no problem doing that to even to a good gallery. I'd be like, go fuck yourself. Like, it's, it's, it's, I have zero interest in pissing off galleries and making them like if they if they listen to me on this, it's, I want to work with any gallery. But the question is, are they going to do work? Are they going to sell my work? The idea from my perspective about galleries was Hi, I made this do you want to make money because I do sell it. It's what you sell. Do it. Here it is. Take it and sell it. Like go sell it don't don't like give me reasons to think like you're just another asshole. Like as a business like, like, I'm not the asshole even though I act like an asshole plenty of times. Like, I have no problem being rude when when it makes sense. I have no problem being rude. Like right now I'm being rude. But like, it's, it's not rude because it's no one being rude. But, but it's like social media, it's very easy to not be rude. And it's very easy to be really clear and upfront. This this is for sale, contact me. And as much as I've been told that's a horrible thing to do. Bullshit. I have to tell everybody that that's for sale. It is available. I'm not going to put the price out there. Because that does look at but you should if you want to just inquire and people do sometimes. So yeah.

Laura Arango Baier: 48:37

Yeah. Or even like just say, oh, yeah, this is for sale, you can check the price on my website. And then you know, they can go anonymously, because some people may be shy about reaching out because they're afraid of hearing. Like if it's really pricey, or you know, some people are just very shy about it. So like, just like if you have like a website where people could go and be like, hey, oh, wow, it's it costs us much. I'm gonna just fucking buy it. Voila! You just made a sale. But that person wouldn't have known unless you said, hey, it's available, because not everyone is under the assumption that all your work is available,

Unknown: 49:06

Right. I mean, right now I'm doing a holiday sale and I'm literally doing five zero 50% off for anything. This isn't even like meant as a plug for anything from 2018 and earlier, which is a shit ton of stuff that I have. And I don't care I want it's you know, I did a I did a real recently where I destroyed a painting and it got hate and love like you wouldn't believe. But I really I just had open studios and I everybody that walked in and I was like I have a 50% off sale going on. You can see the prices in the hallway on things. You can see prices in here in my studio. And like people were just like, okay, yeah, and I was like, why? Like, like, I was like something that I told my students and like some of my students relate. Some of my students do collect my work and it's just, it's been a little bit difficult but even on Instagram, I'm on my stories I'll be I'll be showing it like At 30% off, and I'll know and I'll show them the price tag.

Laura Arango Baier: 50:03

Yeah, yeah. And, and the good thing is with social media, like, you'll have a lot more people, you know, looking at and being like, Oh, well, you know, I like this piece. Let me just like, message him and be like, Yeah, I'll take it. I mean, that's what I've done in the past too, or I'll do like a sale through my Instagram story. And then, you know, it'd be like, you know, like, first person to message me about this piece, you know, you can get it if you know, for this amount, and then it's great because it just messaged me, like, Hey, this is a Venmo, or PayPal? Or what do you what do you use like, well, and that makes it so much easier. So let's go on to the next question. What tips can you give artists who begin taking on Commissions?

Unknown: 50:43

Tips for artists taking on commissions, make a contract, get money up front have contingencies for situations, keep your keep your client informed, don't let them tell you how it should be like how it should look, but take their considerations under peer review, which means only your own and don't be afraid to nix any idea they have. Be firm that if they want to make changes to their to the idea, charge more money, always charge more money. And draw it before painting.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:17

Yes. Give them a sketch. Yeah,

Jason Polins: 51:20

that's like, that's like, one of the only times Yeah, and it doesn't have to be like a well done drawing or anything. But like, it doesn't have to be the same size as what at the painting would be. But definitely, definitely like make the shape the right shape. Is it tall and narrow? Is long in there. Is it square is a rectangle, whatever? Is it circular, whatever is an egg shape, who gives a shit. But definitely draw it so that they can see it because no one but you the individual that's taking on that commission can can can see it in your mind to some degree. That's my advice.

Laura Arango Baier: 51:55

That's great advice. And I had seen that you had mentioned that you got that advice, actually from Florence Academy. And I actually got my advice from Michael John Angel, because he used to be a portrait painter. And he would say the same thing like get paid, upfront, get paid up front. You need it for materials costs you needed just in case the back out, like if they back out at least Hey, you got paid, you know, for basically just getting materials, which is great.

Jason Polins: 52:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And then you have all the materials.

Laura Arango Baier: 52:31

And commissions are, you know, a part of how artists can make money today? Yes. So so that works out too. Awesome. Do you have any last words for artists? Any good advice? Just to get out there?

Jason Polins: 52:46

Yeah. Yeah, once, like, there's so many things I do want to say. But I'll keep it to a couple of short sort of things that I teach in my studio all the time that I say and things that I believe in. So one of my biggest, most significant sayings is make a mark to adjust a mark. And that that's what I teach people right off the bat. And it has a lot of meaning to it. And I've been saying that for probably about 20 years. And I love this idea. Because literally, you have to do something before you can play around with it and adjust it. Make a mark to adjust the mark so so it's like, just take a chance just start doing something. Everybody that I teach, they have to understand that what they're getting into is an opportunity to practice not perform. When they're in my studio, I don't care how good the outcome is, it's practice, they're not there to perform. Practice is like 99% of what we do. As creative people, the thing that becomes a performance is when you're no longer practicing, and you're executing something based on your knowledge base or your based on how far you can take something I don't know, maybe not even that, but but it has to do with something regarding that. So practice, don't perform. And then the other thing is, is another idea is the idea of I don't know what to call this, but everything does three things really well. Every living thing. gathers, organizes and presents. So it's these three things that we do. So as people as creative people, we gather information, we organize the information, and then we present the information and in creative sort of endeavor, the most time is spent in gathering and organizing and repeating that. So you throw some paint up on a canvas. You put some charcoal on a piece of paper or pencil, whatever, put some ink down it doesn't matter but As you're gathering information I observe you, I think about you know how you're seated right now with, you know, the dark shape of your hair, the light shape of your of your face and your neck. And I can see the light of your shirt. And I think about organizing that on my canvas a little bit. Now I'm going to gather more information. And then I'm going to reorganize what I did. So I'm going to omit something, I'm going to include something else, I'm going to adjust this, that takes the most time. And if you're not gathering and organizing the presentation is just like, you know, like Tada, here it is, what do you think? Great. Thanks, bye. And it's like the least the least significant thing is the the presentation. So keep thinking about that gathering and organizing stage. And try not to try not to gather too much, because it really is about the organization.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:50

And then the presentation will will happen on its own. I mean...

Jason Polins: 55:53

That's it.

Laura Arango Baier: 55:54

You don't it's not it just emerges. Yeah.

Jason Polins: 55:58

Yeah, yeah. It's irrelevant. Yeah. I mean, anyone that's playing an instrument takes all the time to gather and organize in order for them to be able to play that song. And the presentation is really that three and a half minutes or whatever, of playing in front of people at some recital or, or some performance or whatever. So yeah, and that's important, but it's it's nowhere near as important as the preparation.

Laura Arango Baier: 56:24

I don't think they could do it without practicing first. I would be terrified. And then funnily enough, you know, when they do perform it, it'll, it'll just feel like second nature, because they've done it so much anyway, you know, yeah, they have that trust in themselves, which is really important too. correct. Yep, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, very important. That it's very important. Yeah. Other than that, I mean, check me out on Instagram, I guess if you don't know who I am. And to think people can always reach out and ask questions or whatever they want. They can send me love and hate mail.

Unknown: 57:05

That's interesting. I apologize for the gallery shit talk. To you gallery A.

Laura Arango Baier: 57:12

Yeah, you're good, you're totally good.

Jason Polins: 57:15

Oh, do I have anything coming up? Yeah, I do. Actually, in the second week of June of 2023, I will be doing a landscape workshop. And it's a plein air workshop. And it's on my website, which is ponds atelier.com. And you can see the link there and you can send me a message if you're interested. There will be some zoom, demonstrations and materials talks and things like that leading up to that workshop or anyone. And those ones are free. I also have been trying to pick up my pace of doing some zoom demonstrations that people pay absolutely enormous sums of money, meaning like maybe $10 tops to participate. Yeah. And, and I just I paid for like an hour, an hour and a half depending on how it's going and people's questions and things like that. And some sometimes I do them for free and those I usually announce on Instagram and sometimes they're on my I have another website called up from this company podia that I use for that stuff usually. But yeah, and that's about it right now. And classes are live in person if someone's local to the Boston area and you want to come visit or you want to take classes people can start at any time I don't care what what where the semester it is. You can start the last day the first day the middle or whatever works. Perfect. So make it easy.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:51

Yeah, you do make it very easy.

Jason Polins: 58:54

Yeah. Try to.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:58

Yeah,well, thank you.

Jason Polins: 58:58

That's it.

Laura Arango Baier: 58:59

Yeah.